A 2 way using the Tang Bang 4" bamboo driver?
Hello everyone! Does anyone know of a 2-way design or a FTF (if that is such a thing) using the 4 inch bamboo full ranges from Tang Band. It would be cool if they had a crossover diagram and maybe some reviews. I have 16 of them I used in a pair of line arrays and I am ready to play with them again. Many thanks
Dan
Hello everyone! Does anyone know of a 2-way design or a FTF (if that is such a thing) using the 4 inch bamboo full ranges from Tang Band. It would be cool if they had a crossover diagram and maybe some reviews. I have 16 of them I used in a pair of line arrays and I am ready to play with them again. Many thanks
Dan
hi !
i'm currently working on the d'appolito MTM using 2 tang Band w4-1337S and a LCY108... There are not much information about this driver on DIY forums so i give it a try.
having heard both of the W4-1320 and W4-1337 playing, the titanium one seems to be flat and goes up at 10kHz... the bamboo one has a little bump in its response at about 5kHz....
I will tell more when my filter wil be done.
In the MTM configuration, to avoid troubles with vertical lobing, the crossover frequency must be low... really low... and even with small 4'' drivers, you'll have to work between 1500Hz and 2000Hz... In my case, I have 200mm between the two TB (i cut the front plate of the LCY) and 2KHz of crossover 3rd order will result in a lob at about 30 degrees.... the right frequency should be 1500Hz (thanks to Dr D'appolito)...
yann
i'm currently working on the d'appolito MTM using 2 tang Band w4-1337S and a LCY108... There are not much information about this driver on DIY forums so i give it a try.
having heard both of the W4-1320 and W4-1337 playing, the titanium one seems to be flat and goes up at 10kHz... the bamboo one has a little bump in its response at about 5kHz....
I will tell more when my filter wil be done.
In the MTM configuration, to avoid troubles with vertical lobing, the crossover frequency must be low... really low... and even with small 4'' drivers, you'll have to work between 1500Hz and 2000Hz... In my case, I have 200mm between the two TB (i cut the front plate of the LCY) and 2KHz of crossover 3rd order will result in a lob at about 30 degrees.... the right frequency should be 1500Hz (thanks to Dr D'appolito)...
yann
thanks ypasco. I am a total newbie to the diy department, I have never even built a crossover! Let me know how the progress goes and how they sound. Send me pics of all your progress (including the crossover). Do you think they could work with the same crossover? Which drivers' sound do you prefer? Why did you go with the titanium driver? lastly what is the LCY108?
Thanks again
Dan
Thanks again
Dan
Hi !
going with the titanium driver was a choice i made when looking at the impedance curve of the driver.
the impedance curve gives a good view of mechanical coupling between the the electrical path and the mechanical behaviour of the membrane. In the case of the titanium driver, the impedance curve is very smooth with no accidents. the bamboo driver seems to have more accidents in its curves revealing a strong modal behaviour of the membrane. Those modes are strongly coupled with the acoustic radiation of the cone and should be heard as a resonnance in the acoustic radiation. (I can remember that the banboo driver needs some tweating in the filter because it has a 4db shift between 2 and 3 kHz)
another point is the work done by tangband with the short-circuit ring of the moving coil : it can be abserved whith the low "Le" of the driver and the quasi flat impedance at high frequencies : both bamboo and titanium have this and it make the filter more simple to design.
To sum up :
- a smooth impedance curve is a way to see how the driver will radiate sound.
The bamboo driver is a good choice too and i can say that i didn't see much on the new titanium one : this is the second reason why i am working with it to evaluate it.
for the tweeter : it is a ribbon driver. This driver uses a relatively big ribbon which is large and short. usually, a ribbon driver uses a long and thin ribbon and this has as consequence a directivity which presents some lobs in low frequencies. The Lcy adresses the directivity problem... (but it costs a lot : more than 150US$)
I strongly recommand to use a dome for a first project...
there is a great web site where a lot of drivers are evaluated (the bamboo is there). the adress is Zaphaudio site
i will try to give you more informations is you need some.
Yann
going with the titanium driver was a choice i made when looking at the impedance curve of the driver.
the impedance curve gives a good view of mechanical coupling between the the electrical path and the mechanical behaviour of the membrane. In the case of the titanium driver, the impedance curve is very smooth with no accidents. the bamboo driver seems to have more accidents in its curves revealing a strong modal behaviour of the membrane. Those modes are strongly coupled with the acoustic radiation of the cone and should be heard as a resonnance in the acoustic radiation. (I can remember that the banboo driver needs some tweating in the filter because it has a 4db shift between 2 and 3 kHz)
another point is the work done by tangband with the short-circuit ring of the moving coil : it can be abserved whith the low "Le" of the driver and the quasi flat impedance at high frequencies : both bamboo and titanium have this and it make the filter more simple to design.
To sum up :
- a smooth impedance curve is a way to see how the driver will radiate sound.
The bamboo driver is a good choice too and i can say that i didn't see much on the new titanium one : this is the second reason why i am working with it to evaluate it.
for the tweeter : it is a ribbon driver. This driver uses a relatively big ribbon which is large and short. usually, a ribbon driver uses a long and thin ribbon and this has as consequence a directivity which presents some lobs in low frequencies. The Lcy adresses the directivity problem... (but it costs a lot : more than 150US$)
I strongly recommand to use a dome for a first project...
there is a great web site where a lot of drivers are evaluated (the bamboo is there). the adress is Zaphaudio site
i will try to give you more informations is you need some.
Yann
Thanks alot for the reply! Alot of what you said is somewhat of second language to me, but I plan to catch up soon. Would it be worth it to sell my bamboo drivers and get titanium ones? Would these mtm's be suitable for home theater or more of a stereo setup. I was hoping to make satellites since I have a few. For that price I will probably go with a dome tweeter. Do you know of any place online that can help me design a crossover and notch filter (I don't even know where to begin, but would like to build my own so I could learn). Thank again for the help.
Dan
Dan
don't sell your bamboo drivers.... they are great.... and are certainely one of the most exciting loudspeaker even produced by tang band.
there is a lot to do with it and if you plan to built a two way system, they are really great.
if you have a lot of them one thing great for you is to built
three two ways for front L, R and one center using a MMT configuration (or simply MT) , and 2 or 3 rear channels with only the tang band.
it can be easy to design.
i can help if you ask me.
yann
there is a lot to do with it and if you plan to built a two way system, they are really great.
if you have a lot of them one thing great for you is to built
three two ways for front L, R and one center using a MMT configuration (or simply MT) , and 2 or 3 rear channels with only the tang band.
it can be easy to design.
i can help if you ask me.
yann
Yes, I would definitly appreciate your help! I am as green as they come. I have 16 to play with and my goal is a home theater setup, but still want to have the best possible sound when listening to music in stereo (which I love to do). As far as a budget it would be nice to keep the tweeters around 30 bucks apiece unless think there is one more suitable for the job that costs more. Thank you so much for your offer to help.
Dan
Dan
OK, i'll try to find something great for you. just give me some time : i'll try to figure out what to do the next week-end.
Do you have a way to measure the t&S parameters of your driver ?
if not, you can download a really great freeware at this place :
speaker workshop
there are some links to build the impedance bridge needed to measure the impedance curve and the parameters.
Yann
Do you have a way to measure the t&S parameters of your driver ?
if not, you can download a really great freeware at this place :
speaker workshop
there are some links to build the impedance bridge needed to measure the impedance curve and the parameters.
Yann
hi Dan,
i did some works this WE.
I have some questions for you :
What will be the principal use of your loudspeakers ?
Do you know if your amplifier is working well with low impedance loudspeakers (going down to 3.7 Ohms) ?
Do you have an idea of the final size you would like for your box ?
Will you plan to use a subwoofer ?
thanks yann
i did some works this WE.
I have some questions for you :
What will be the principal use of your loudspeakers ?
Do you know if your amplifier is working well with low impedance loudspeakers (going down to 3.7 Ohms) ?
Do you have an idea of the final size you would like for your box ?
Will you plan to use a subwoofer ?
thanks yann
Hey yann
Thanks again for workin on this
I plan on using these for home theater and music (stereo only) and possibly I might make a pair for my computer
As far as amplifiers I only have stereo amps. I have a Yamaha A-1000, ADC/Audio Dynamics CA-2000E, and a Carver M1.0t. I plan on buying a 7.1 channel amp so I guess I will find one that can handle a low impedence, any suggestions?
I would prefer the boxes to be smaller in size. I was hoping these to be satellite style. I think you said something about mtms for the front and a 2 way for the rears. If you think I can hang the mtms on the wall that is good. If I make a pair for the computer (I would use the 2 way) then I will just put them next to the monitor so I guess it doesnt matter on their size.
Yes I will most definitly be using a subwoofer. I will most likely make my own.
Dan
Thanks again for workin on this
I plan on using these for home theater and music (stereo only) and possibly I might make a pair for my computer
As far as amplifiers I only have stereo amps. I have a Yamaha A-1000, ADC/Audio Dynamics CA-2000E, and a Carver M1.0t. I plan on buying a 7.1 channel amp so I guess I will find one that can handle a low impedence, any suggestions?
I would prefer the boxes to be smaller in size. I was hoping these to be satellite style. I think you said something about mtms for the front and a 2 way for the rears. If you think I can hang the mtms on the wall that is good. If I make a pair for the computer (I would use the 2 way) then I will just put them next to the monitor so I guess it doesnt matter on their size.
Yes I will most definitly be using a subwoofer. I will most likely make my own.
Dan
How About A TMM Option
Hi Yann,
How about doing a TMM incorporating this technolgy http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~hanbei/eng-intro.html It should go down to about 50Hz so a Sub could easily be incorporated
Cheers,
Ben
Hi Yann,
How about doing a TMM incorporating this technolgy http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~hanbei/eng-intro.html It should go down to about 50Hz so a Sub could easily be incorporated
Cheers,
Ben
Re: How About A TMM Option
Hi Ben,
I also have 4 of these drivers and that actually looks like an interesting application.
I may give it a try, but I wonder about sizing the box and how to tune the spiral horn to 50hz.
I have also thought about something like this for the Tang Band W4-937SA. http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-937sa.htm
Anyway this is an interesting thread. I will keep watching.
Cheers!
Russ
Ben Reginato said:
Hi Ben,
I also have 4 of these drivers and that actually looks like an interesting application.
I may give it a try, but I wonder about sizing the box and how to tune the spiral horn to 50hz.
I have also thought about something like this for the Tang Band W4-937SA. http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-937sa.htm
Anyway this is an interesting thread. I will keep watching.
Cheers!
Russ
Hi All,
Concerning the folded line, or the angular line, the length must be adjusted depending on the end of the line (open or close)
if using an open ended line:
the length of the line must be 1/4 of the walvelength corresponding to the resonnant frequency of the driver loaded by the air inside the line.
if using a close ended line : it's 1/2 and using a "variovent" like device, will decrease the Q factor of the tube.
This may work but is a long cut and try work (if not using some king of software)
the isssue of the xmax is the same as with a BR box. and i can tell you that under 50Hz, don't ask more that 2 or 3 watt to the driver... it will saturate.
using a single driver, a BF box (6 L) at 70Hz will give a good result (considereing room reinforcement). Cone excursion will be over the xmax under 20Hz and is 1mm at 60Hz... This is unusefull until you are using a 2 or 3 W Tube amp...
For a 2 drivers box, 11-12 L and the same 70Hz is a good choice too. Excursion is reduced but the impedance drops down to 3Ohm... and you may reach 5W under 50Hz...
The way to use those wonderful drivers in a HT system is to use the high pass filter of the amp... and using a smaller box.
a 4 L with a 80Hz vent is a great choice for a single driver. Using the high pass filter at 80Hz will give the wanted result : the excursion is now maximum at 0.75mm for 1W injected in the driver.
A closed box (2 L) will do also but the cutoff frequency is more 150 than 80Hz in the BR case. There is no advantage regarding the excursion. (double the volume for 2 drivers in parallel)
To have the entire 25W of the driver, a high filter at 250Hz is needed.
Now using two drivers is a choice to make by itself...
The TMM configuration is easier to built and allow the driver to goes to 4kHz without bid troubles of directivity.
A MTM configuration (which is my prefered) is far better concerning the sound staging and imaging because it acts like a point source. BUT : the tweeter needs to comes from 1.5-2KHz (using a 3nd order butterworth in phase with the TB)
A good Morel MDT30, is a great choice because of it's power capacity and because it can be crossed over from 1.7kHz But it won't go far away in frequency (19-20kHz)
I will try to find the link of a german site where a filter was designed to avoid the 5kHz bump in the response of the W4-1320SA
well, a lot of information in this email, I hope it helps....
I will give you more informations about my W4-1337S, LCY108, peerless, MTMW tri amp system in the next messages.
(I apologize for my english, i'm french speaking...)
Concerning the folded line, or the angular line, the length must be adjusted depending on the end of the line (open or close)
if using an open ended line:
the length of the line must be 1/4 of the walvelength corresponding to the resonnant frequency of the driver loaded by the air inside the line.
if using a close ended line : it's 1/2 and using a "variovent" like device, will decrease the Q factor of the tube.
This may work but is a long cut and try work (if not using some king of software)
the isssue of the xmax is the same as with a BR box. and i can tell you that under 50Hz, don't ask more that 2 or 3 watt to the driver... it will saturate.
using a single driver, a BF box (6 L) at 70Hz will give a good result (considereing room reinforcement). Cone excursion will be over the xmax under 20Hz and is 1mm at 60Hz... This is unusefull until you are using a 2 or 3 W Tube amp...
For a 2 drivers box, 11-12 L and the same 70Hz is a good choice too. Excursion is reduced but the impedance drops down to 3Ohm... and you may reach 5W under 50Hz...
The way to use those wonderful drivers in a HT system is to use the high pass filter of the amp... and using a smaller box.
a 4 L with a 80Hz vent is a great choice for a single driver. Using the high pass filter at 80Hz will give the wanted result : the excursion is now maximum at 0.75mm for 1W injected in the driver.
A closed box (2 L) will do also but the cutoff frequency is more 150 than 80Hz in the BR case. There is no advantage regarding the excursion. (double the volume for 2 drivers in parallel)
To have the entire 25W of the driver, a high filter at 250Hz is needed.
Now using two drivers is a choice to make by itself...
The TMM configuration is easier to built and allow the driver to goes to 4kHz without bid troubles of directivity.
A MTM configuration (which is my prefered) is far better concerning the sound staging and imaging because it acts like a point source. BUT : the tweeter needs to comes from 1.5-2KHz (using a 3nd order butterworth in phase with the TB)
A good Morel MDT30, is a great choice because of it's power capacity and because it can be crossed over from 1.7kHz But it won't go far away in frequency (19-20kHz)
I will try to find the link of a german site where a filter was designed to avoid the 5kHz bump in the response of the W4-1320SA
well, a lot of information in this email, I hope it helps....
I will give you more informations about my W4-1337S, LCY108, peerless, MTMW tri amp system in the next messages.
(I apologize for my english, i'm french speaking...)
Hey thanks for the response. Alot of this info is foreign to me. So if I did a MTM which you feel would be the best choice, what size cabinet would I use? Also would I go ported or sealed? How do I go about building the crossover (using a 3nd order butterworth in phase with the TB) and use with the 5kHz notch filter. Sorry if all the info was in there and I just passed it up. I am green.
Dan
Dan
Hi Dan,
OK, let's go
if you want a MTM configuration :
use a 11l box (internal volume - Hp motor volume - vent volume) tuned at 65-70 Hz (1.25'' (inside diameter) x 3 or 3.5'' in length)
you will have to use a high pass filter, of the bass management of you home theater receiver. Don't try to design a passive high pass filter (it is possible) but the impedance will drop to 2Ohm... impossible to drive by most of the HT receivers.
Try to find a tweeter which goes low... you need to filter it at 2kHz (the higher frequency you can) the notch is no longer usefull here.
Use a 3rd order butterworth filter for both TB and tweeter. connect them in phase.
The 2 TB must be as close as possible (if you can : 8'' center to center)
The tweeter can be moved a little on the right or left of the box if you can't find a small enough one.
Try to use a 8'' large baffle with a double chamfer or a round corner to reduce baffle diffraction. If you use less than 8'' make look at the baffle step. In the case of 8'' it happens at about 1kHz... it needs to be simulated. (I can do it for you)
and that's it...
if you chose a tweeter, i will simulate all of this for you.
Yann
OK, let's go
if you want a MTM configuration :
use a 11l box (internal volume - Hp motor volume - vent volume) tuned at 65-70 Hz (1.25'' (inside diameter) x 3 or 3.5'' in length)
you will have to use a high pass filter, of the bass management of you home theater receiver. Don't try to design a passive high pass filter (it is possible) but the impedance will drop to 2Ohm... impossible to drive by most of the HT receivers.
Try to find a tweeter which goes low... you need to filter it at 2kHz (the higher frequency you can) the notch is no longer usefull here.
Use a 3rd order butterworth filter for both TB and tweeter. connect them in phase.
The 2 TB must be as close as possible (if you can : 8'' center to center)
The tweeter can be moved a little on the right or left of the box if you can't find a small enough one.
Try to use a 8'' large baffle with a double chamfer or a round corner to reduce baffle diffraction. If you use less than 8'' make look at the baffle step. In the case of 8'' it happens at about 1kHz... it needs to be simulated. (I can do it for you)
and that's it...
if you chose a tweeter, i will simulate all of this for you.
Yann
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