Hi.
as soon as i'm done with my current SW project, im going to build a pair of speakers for myself.
I want it to deliver good quality sound for low cost. (don't we all?
)
So, therefore it's logical to pick out drivers that has a reputation of giving MUCH for the money.
after reading tons of post in a lots of different forums (doing my homework good), i've found three drivers that's supposed to have a great value, and that i can get the hands on in norway.
the drivers are Silverflute W17RC38-S as bass, Tangband W4-657SC and the Hivi K1.
http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-657sc.htm
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=30
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/28-847s.htm
I've found out that the XO will be something like LR2(?) @ 2-300hz between woofer and mid, and LR4 @ 2,2khz between mid and tweeter. an alternative could be LR2 @ 3kHz. and then add BFC to the mid.
An alternative to the K1 could be Tb 28-847S, then it would be easier the find an already designed crossover for that one.
The box could be ca 13-16litres tuned to ca 54hz as recommended by the manufacturer. but would it hurt if i made it a bit bigger? like 20litres tuned to 50hz? gives a pretty good result in bassbox pro. (i want floorstanding speakers).
i would be very thankful for thoughs and comments on my idea
Øyvind.
as soon as i'm done with my current SW project, im going to build a pair of speakers for myself.
I want it to deliver good quality sound for low cost. (don't we all?
)So, therefore it's logical to pick out drivers that has a reputation of giving MUCH for the money.
after reading tons of post in a lots of different forums (doing my homework good), i've found three drivers that's supposed to have a great value, and that i can get the hands on in norway.
the drivers are Silverflute W17RC38-S as bass, Tangband W4-657SC and the Hivi K1.
http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-657sc.htm
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=30
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/28-847s.htm
I've found out that the XO will be something like LR2(?) @ 2-300hz between woofer and mid, and LR4 @ 2,2khz between mid and tweeter. an alternative could be LR2 @ 3kHz. and then add BFC to the mid.
An alternative to the K1 could be Tb 28-847S, then it would be easier the find an already designed crossover for that one.
The box could be ca 13-16litres tuned to ca 54hz as recommended by the manufacturer. but would it hurt if i made it a bit bigger? like 20litres tuned to 50hz? gives a pretty good result in bassbox pro. (i want floorstanding speakers).
i would be very thankful for thoughs and comments on my idea
Øyvind.
Why make a 3-way and still have no bass
What are your reasons for this design
I bet you can make a much better 2-way with the 8" Silverflute
I gues you know the designs from Troels and Zaph
If you really insist on your own desig, I would suggest 8" silverflute and one of the better mid/fullrange from TB, C/O would be 500-800hz and 5-10khz
What are your reasons for this design
I bet you can make a much better 2-way with the 8" Silverflute
I gues you know the designs from Troels and Zaph
If you really insist on your own desig, I would suggest 8" silverflute and one of the better mid/fullrange from TB, C/O would be 500-800hz and 5-10khz
the ting is that i've already got a pair of those Tb w4, and it's supposed to be a good speaker, but doesnt go low enough at higher spl's. And i've heard that the w4 plays much better in the mid-range than silverflute. The respnse graph doesnt look too good above 1khz on the 8", wouldn't that be too low for almost any tweeter?
since i will cross the speakers over to a SW at 100hz, i thing that the 6 1/2" will be sufficient.
do you think the SF 6 1/2" could play with equal sound quality compared to the Tb w4 in the midrange?
i've looked at the design at troels and zaph, and most of them are either too expensive, or i can't get the hand of the right drivers in norway. otherwise i would definatly use dayton!
Thanks for your reply i will rethink my project and look for other opportunities. it's nice to have some experienced people to get advice from when planning such a project
since i will cross the speakers over to a SW at 100hz, i thing that the 6 1/2" will be sufficient.
do you think the SF 6 1/2" could play with equal sound quality compared to the Tb w4 in the midrange?
i've looked at the design at troels and zaph, and most of them are either too expensive, or i can't get the hand of the right drivers in norway. otherwise i would definatly use dayton!
Thanks for your reply
i will rethink my project and look for other opportunities. it's nice to have some experienced people to get advice from when planning such a projectYou didnt say anything about using subs, or that you have the TB allready
I guess you are right about the silverflute 6", not being too nice in upper register - allthough 4 ohm version seem ok
Silverflute 8" - I was looking at either the 4 ohm or "S" (shielded), which appear to measure better
Nothing wrong with trying it, but if you want it loud I think the 8" will do better - theres a lot of energi in the midbass region
I guess you are right about the silverflute 6", not being too nice in upper register - allthough 4 ohm version seem ok
Silverflute 8" - I was looking at either the 4 ohm or "S" (shielded), which appear to measure better
Nothing wrong with trying it, but if you want it loud I think the 8" will do better - theres a lot of energi in the midbass region
tinitus said:
No im sorry, i didn't mention it before. I think i'll go for it, the worst thing that can happen is that i'll have to do a lot of work with the filter tuning, but i got plenty of time, and i can learn alot from it. I think i'll try with the 8". thanks for the tip
zaph's silverflute speaker is too small, and can probably not play too loud. but i have considered it. same thing with the 2-way (wich i made a pair of recently, worked nice, but not for my use). the point in make it a three-way is to get the best of all three drivers. since i already got the w4's, then why not
thanks for reply's people! any other comments or tips?
skogs said:
No im sorry, i didn't mention it before. I think i'll go for it, the worst thing that can happen is that i'll have to do a lot of work with the filter tuning, but i got plenty of time, and i can learn alot from it. I think i'll try with the 8". thanks for the tip
zaph's silverflute speaker is too small, and can probably not play too loud. but i have considered it. same thing with the 2-way (wich i made a pair of recently, worked nice, but not for my use). the point in make it a three-way is to get the best of all three drivers. since i already got the w4's, then why not
thanks for reply's people! any other comments or tips?
If you're going to cross over low (which the W4 will let you do), try the 8" Silver Flute driver, preferably the shielded, 4-ohm version. They have impressive bass performance, and crossing them over at about 250hz should work very nicely.
Now i've designed a XO that might be a good place to start, theres very many components involved, but i think thats the only way. I haven't included the BSC yet, because im not sure how many db i have to attenuate, i think 6db will be to much in reality. Maybe i'll just wait and see how much is needed.
it's 2nd order xo all the way, high xo at 3000 and low xo at 300. with a zobel on the mid and 1.6db attenuation on tweeter and bass.
R3, L3, R5, L6 and R8 represents the speaker. i figured that the tweeters inductanse is so small its got nothing to say on the xo. Im a little confused on one thing.. when i have used a zobel filter, then the impedance should be flat.. but will the nominal impedance be equal to "Re" then?
any comments on this filter? does it look like it could work? at least as a starting point?
it's 2nd order xo all the way, high xo at 3000 and low xo at 300. with a zobel on the mid and 1.6db attenuation on tweeter and bass.
R3, L3, R5, L6 and R8 represents the speaker. i figured that the tweeters inductanse is so small its got nothing to say on the xo. Im a little confused on one thing.. when i have used a zobel filter, then the impedance should be flat.. but will the nominal impedance be equal to "Re" then?
any comments on this filter? does it look like it could work? at least as a starting point?
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I didnt think I would do it again .... seems you will go all the way with this so here are my suggestions
First I would recommend to use standard values, and adjust components accordingly
Midrange ......the 2.9 uf is in the wrong place .... it should be last, and have a resistor in series, probably a little bigger than the first RC ..... maybe 8R2
Place a series resistor on ALL paralel components .... resistor values a bit bigger than drivers DC .... and adjust ALL components accordingly to work with theese resistors
You should not need attenuation on woofer .... dont try to achieve flat FR, but rather aim for a slightly falling response
AND you might want a small RC on tweeter, makes it more soft, fluend and exstended
I know you wont find this in the books, but it has taken me more than five years with the same speaker and this particular filter to come to this
First I would recommend to use standard values, and adjust components accordingly
Midrange ......the 2.9 uf is in the wrong place .... it should be last, and have a resistor in series, probably a little bigger than the first RC ..... maybe 8R2
Place a series resistor on ALL paralel components .... resistor values a bit bigger than drivers DC .... and adjust ALL components accordingly to work with theese resistors
You should not need attenuation on woofer .... dont try to achieve flat FR, but rather aim for a slightly falling response
AND you might want a small RC on tweeter, makes it more soft, fluend and exstended
I know you wont find this in the books, but it has taken me more than five years with the same speaker and this particular filter to come to this
should i use a resistor in series with all components in paralel on all three drivers or just the midrange? what is the function of the resistors?
what is an RC?
I will design the new xo, but it will probably take some time!
thanks for the guidelines!
its btw a proper simulation. Until now i have used the nominal impedance, but i've realized that i should use the DC resistance.
what is an RC?
I will design the new xo, but it will probably take some time!
thanks for the guidelines!
its btw a proper simulation. Until now i have used the nominal impedance, but i've realized that i should use the DC resistance.
RC is a resistor and condensator in series with one another and together placed in paralel with signal .... what you call a resistor in series with inductor I dont know ...RI..
Yes .... according to my long time "research" there should be resistors(in series) on ALL paralel components on ALL drivers .... including inductors
Those resistors should be values above drivers DC
This would mean that paralel inductors might have to be smaller ...and paralel condensators...MAYBE a little bit smaller
I dont think you can calculate this .... it will probably be a trial and error
Its not a case of straight frequency .... but to get the phase and timing correct .... and to control abnormal ringing of system in total .... the result is natural sound and exstreme resolution .... You dont get a huge unnormal wide soundstage but more a pinpointing effect with a very deep sounstage ... it makes it possible to hear the "air" and "space" thats actually recorded .... and not something that the speaker produces by itself .....you might call it analytical with exstreme musicallity .... thats what you get when its right
Yes .... according to my long time "research" there should be resistors(in series) on ALL paralel components on ALL drivers .... including inductors
Those resistors should be values above drivers DC
This would mean that paralel inductors might have to be smaller ...and paralel condensators...MAYBE a little bit smaller
I dont think you can calculate this .... it will probably be a trial and error
Its not a case of straight frequency .... but to get the phase and timing correct .... and to control abnormal ringing of system in total .... the result is natural sound and exstreme resolution .... You dont get a huge unnormal wide soundstage but more a pinpointing effect with a very deep sounstage ... it makes it possible to hear the "air" and "space" thats actually recorded .... and not something that the speaker produces by itself .....you might call it analytical with exstreme musicallity .... thats what you get when its right
Thats good to hear
Yes it about the same as impedance correction and at the same time its not, because it is a part of crossover - btw... I have found it to sound best when resistor is connectet on ground side
RC on tweeter does not affect c/o in the same way, and you can implement that when speaker is done and playing - you will hear clearly when you have it right
Try to picture it in a simple manner, yes its difficult and takes time, but its not rocket science
btw... remember, with this filter its normal practice to reverse polarity on midrange
Yes it about the same as impedance correction and at the same time its not, because it is a part of crossover - btw... I have found it to sound best when resistor is connectet on ground side
RC on tweeter does not affect c/o in the same way, and you can implement that when speaker is done and playing - you will hear clearly when you have it right
Try to picture it in a simple manner, yes its difficult and takes time, but its not rocket science
btw... remember, with this filter its normal practice to reverse polarity on midrange
I'll deal with the RC when the speaker is finsihed then.
Now i have made a completely new XO. this one is 1order between woofer and mid, then 1order lowpass on the mid and LR2 highpass on the tweeter. now i don't get any phase-problems, and i don't need any attenuation at all. the linearity keeps within +\-0,3db
and i have used a resistor in series with "all" paralell components (there is only one now, except the zobels on mid and woofer).
will the woofer's and mid's low order lowpass cause trouble you think?
this filter might be a bit silly, i don't know, it was the only way i could fix the phase problem. what do you think?
Now i have made a completely new XO. this one is 1order between woofer and mid, then 1order lowpass on the mid and LR2 highpass on the tweeter. now i don't get any phase-problems, and i don't need any attenuation at all. the linearity keeps within +\-0,3db
and i have used a resistor in series with "all" paralell components (there is only one now, except the zobels on mid and woofer).
will the woofer's and mid's low order lowpass cause trouble you think?
this filter might be a bit silly, i don't know, it was the only way i could fix the phase problem. what do you think?
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