I could use some help please

computerpro3 · 8th January 2007, 07:13 AM

Hello everyone, please be patient with me as it is my first post here and I have already done hours of research.

To introduce myself, I'll just say that right now I am firmly in the clutches of high end headphone audio - my system is in my signature. I have extensive experience soldering and modifying circuits, but not in designing them.

Basically I came to these forums because I need speakers that can compete with the sound that my Grado RS-1 headphones deliver. I realize that building speakers to rival $700 headphones will be difficult, but even if I get 85% of the sound I will be happy. The music I listen to most is classical, jazz, and acoustic stuff like DMB, but I do have a good bit of classic and prog rock as well. Essentially I need speakers that have good all around performance. Impact, dynamics, and clarity are more important to me than soundstage, but as always, more imaging the better!

Anyway I'm coming to you with roughly a $500-600 budget for the speakers. I want to be able to listen without a subwoofer, strictly 2 channel. I want the speakers high-end enough to be backed up by gear like my Melos Pre-amp and really high end amps (and not have them go to wasste). I need textured, detailed bass. Keep in mind I can solder well and woodwork (don't feel like doing anything exotic though).

What would your reccomendations be? If I could get these characteristics in a bookshelf I would love it, but I haven't seen one that can handle bass down to 40hz - ish.

If you were me, with a $500-600 budget and the end goal being to obtain excellent sound for my musical tastes, what would you do? 2 way? 3 way?

Sorry for the long post guys, but I'm quite confused and anxious to get started.

Spasticteapot · 8th January 2007, 07:59 AM

I honestly can't say - different speakers are used for different things, and everyone likes 'em a little different.

For $700, you could build yourself a pair of electrostats, or maybe build a pair of small line arrays with Dayton PT2B ribbons and some inexpensive woofers.

sreten · 8th January 2007, 11:13 AM

Hi,

There are some good designs available but very often the cabinet design is weak.
So I'd suggest extensively researching cabinet construction.

Speaker design is about what good at the price - not performance per se.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html

Is a good design, but limited information on the cabinets.

A floorstanding version would go down to 40Hz, even lower
when optimally placed and tuned to to use room gain.

I like the look of 20 Litres volume with a port tuned to 33Hz.

If building a floorstanding version I'd build them somewhat like these :

Make a good job of the cabinets and you will have an excellent pair of speakers.

/sreten.

computerpro3 · 8th January 2007, 09:46 PM

Well I'm beginning to think that I will not be able to achieve the bass I want without a sub. So I am thinking of doing a strictly sound quality (as opposed to SPL) setup of 2 bookshelfs and a sub.

For the bookshelfs, I LOVE the Focal sound (it's what my car has). For the enclosure, I would clone a partsexpress .75CUFT cabinet (.82ft^3 internal volume according to the website), port it, and tune it to 50hz. This will yeild a 3db down point of 46hz.

As for the tweeter, I was planning on using the Vifa XT25TG30-04. I don't have experience with it, but it has a very low FS and is capable of being crossed over right at aroudn 2000hz, which is where I'm THINKING It should be, as the breakup of the focal woofer occurs slightly beyond this point.

Does this all sound okay to you guys?

If so, the only thing I have to figure out how to do is design the damn crossover. I'm guestimating it should be around 2000hz based on the graphs of the woofer and tweeter. This sound right?

Thanks.

sreten · 9th January 2007, 05:35 PM

Hi,

Whether the floorstanders suggested will give you the bass you
want depends on your room size, not bass extension numbers.

The subwoofer route is best served by sealed boxes with
well damped roll-offs driven full range with the sub in parallel.
Smaller boxes are better than bigger boxes by default usually.
Still not likely to give you highest quality bass, more likely quantity.

look at the designs here :

http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm

I suggest you build one of them.

/sreten.

AdamThorne · 9th January 2007, 05:48 PM

"What would your reccomendations be? If I could get these characteristics in a bookshelf I would love it, but I haven't seen one that can handle bass down to 40hz - ish."

I just got a mailing from Parts Express. They seem to be excited about a new kit they're putting together designed by Joe D'Appolito. It's a bookshelf. I have no actual experience with the kit.

The mailing said get all the parts on sale (limited time) for $499, I think. I dunno if the web says the same thing. They claim -3db at 41 hz.

See
http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...r701/index.cfm

mantisory · 9th January 2007, 06:16 PM

i'd also check out RAW Acoustics and DIYCAble (extremis/usher Kit 61)

Hezz · 9th January 2007, 06:30 PM

Computerpro3,

you can easily achieve what you wish because in reality the speaker cabinet is one huge weak link for most speaker systems. High quality raw drivers are available for reasonable prices and will perform at very high levels if put in an ultra high end cabinet design with a good crossover.

I can not give you an exact cost but to avoid having to use a subwoofer you can go with a 8, 10 or 12 inch woofer depending on your room size. You can easily build a very high quality system for under 1000 USD and if you are careful for about the target of 700 USD that you desire.

If your room is small a single 8 inch will do. If medium sized a 10 is good and if your room is a little larger a 12 is good.

Because speaker cabinets are heavy and manufacturers have to ship them most are not built to really high end standards. Because for one thing they end up being heavy.

In fact I can give you some general guidelines in which you can make a system so killer that you will be blown away.

But the first thing you need to know is how big the largest box size you can have or tolerate. Most commercial systems are made small and suffer in many respects because of this. however, a system does not have to be really large to be outstanding.

sreten · 10th January 2007, 02:10 PM

Hi,

If you've got the juice to drive them then the mini bass master is :

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Extremis/extremis.html

Something from the 4 links I posted will suit the application, and is a far
better idea than picking some drivers and wondering what to do with them.

/sreten.

8th January 2007, 07:13 AM	#1
computerpro3 diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2007	I could use some help please Hello everyone, please be patient with me as it is my first post here and I have already done hours of research. To introduce myself, I'll just say that right now I am firmly in the clutches of high end headphone audio - my system is in my signature. I have extensive experience soldering and modifying circuits, but not in designing them. Basically I came to these forums because I need speakers that can compete with the sound that my Grado RS-1 headphones deliver. I realize that building speakers to rival $700 headphones will be difficult, but even if I get 85% of the sound I will be happy. The music I listen to most is classical, jazz, and acoustic stuff like DMB, but I do have a good bit of classic and prog rock as well. Essentially I need speakers that have good all around performance. Impact, dynamics, and clarity are more important to me than soundstage, but as always, more imaging the better! Anyway I'm coming to you with roughly a $500-600 budget for the speakers. I want to be able to listen without a subwoofer, strictly 2 channel. I want the speakers high-end enough to be backed up by gear like my Melos Pre-amp and really high end amps (and not have them go to wasste). I need textured, detailed bass. Keep in mind I can solder well and woodwork (don't feel like doing anything exotic though). What would your reccomendations be? If I could get these characteristics in a bookshelf I would love it, but I haven't seen one that can handle bass down to 40hz - ish. If you were me, with a $500-600 budget and the end goal being to obtain excellent sound for my musical tastes, what would you do? 2 way? 3 way? Sorry for the long post guys, but I'm quite confused and anxious to get started.

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8th January 2007, 07:59 AM	#2
Spasticteapot diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wisconsin....what did you expect?	I honestly can't say - different speakers are used for different things, and everyone likes 'em a little different. For $700, you could build yourself a pair of electrostats, or maybe build a pair of small line arrays with Dayton PT2B ribbons and some inexpensive woofers.

8th January 2007, 11:13 AM	#3
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, There are some good designs available but very often the cabinet design is weak. So I'd suggest extensively researching cabinet construction. Speaker design is about what good at the price - not performance per se. http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html Is a good design, but limited information on the cabinets. A floorstanding version would go down to 40Hz, even lower when optimally placed and tuned to to use room gain. I like the look of 20 Litres volume with a port tuned to 33Hz. If building a floorstanding version I'd build them somewhat like these : Make a good job of the cabinets and you will have an excellent pair of speakers. /sreten.

8th January 2007, 09:46 PM	#4
computerpro3 diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2007	Well I'm beginning to think that I will not be able to achieve the bass I want without a sub. So I am thinking of doing a strictly sound quality (as opposed to SPL) setup of 2 bookshelfs and a sub. For the bookshelfs, I LOVE the Focal sound (it's what my car has). For the enclosure, I would clone a partsexpress .75CUFT cabinet (.82ft^3 internal volume according to the website), port it, and tune it to 50hz. This will yeild a 3db down point of 46hz. As for the tweeter, I was planning on using the Vifa XT25TG30-04. I don't have experience with it, but it has a very low FS and is capable of being crossed over right at aroudn 2000hz, which is where I'm THINKING It should be, as the breakup of the focal woofer occurs slightly beyond this point. Does this all sound okay to you guys? If so, the only thing I have to figure out how to do is design the damn crossover. I'm guestimating it should be around 2000hz based on the graphs of the woofer and tweeter. This sound right? Thanks.

9th January 2007, 05:35 PM	#5
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, Whether the floorstanders suggested will give you the bass you want depends on your room size, not bass extension numbers. The subwoofer route is best served by sealed boxes with well damped roll-offs driven full range with the sub in parallel. Smaller boxes are better than bigger boxes by default usually. Still not likely to give you highest quality bass, more likely quantity. look at the designs here : http://www.zaphaudio.com/ http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/ http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm I suggest you build one of them. /sreten.

9th January 2007, 05:48 PM	#6
AdamThorne Rebel Samurai! diyAudio Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minneapolis, MN	"What would your reccomendations be? If I could get these characteristics in a bookshelf I would love it, but I haven't seen one that can handle bass down to 40hz - ish." I just got a mailing from Parts Express. They seem to be excited about a new kit they're putting together designed by Joe D'Appolito. It's a bookshelf. I have no actual experience with the kit. The mailing said get all the parts on sale (limited time) for $499, I think. I dunno if the web says the same thing. They claim -3db at 41 hz. See http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...r701/index.cfm

9th January 2007, 06:16 PM	#7
mantisory diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: toronto	i'd also check out RAW Acoustics and DIYCAble (extremis/usher Kit 61)

9th January 2007, 06:30 PM	#8
Hezz diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utah	Computerpro3, you can easily achieve what you wish because in reality the speaker cabinet is one huge weak link for most speaker systems. High quality raw drivers are available for reasonable prices and will perform at very high levels if put in an ultra high end cabinet design with a good crossover. I can not give you an exact cost but to avoid having to use a subwoofer you can go with a 8, 10 or 12 inch woofer depending on your room size. You can easily build a very high quality system for under 1000 USD and if you are careful for about the target of 700 USD that you desire. If your room is small a single 8 inch will do. If medium sized a 10 is good and if your room is a little larger a 12 is good. Because speaker cabinets are heavy and manufacturers have to ship them most are not built to really high end standards. Because for one thing they end up being heavy. In fact I can give you some general guidelines in which you can make a system so killer that you will be blown away. But the first thing you need to know is how big the largest box size you can have or tolerate. Most commercial systems are made small and suffer in many respects because of this. however, a system does not have to be really large to be outstanding.

10th January 2007, 02:10 PM	#9
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, If you've got the juice to drive them then the mini bass master is : http://www.rjbaudio.com/Extremis/extremis.html Something from the 4 links I posted will suit the application, and is a far better idea than picking some drivers and wondering what to do with them. /sreten.

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