Buy the Seas 19TFF1. It's awesome! (Best get 2 of them)
Replace the caps as per Alan's ordering instructions.
Fit ESR compensating resistors as per Alan's ordering instructions.
Replace the binding posts. Remember that there is an aluminium plate on the current ones that will short out your speakers unless new binding posts are isolated from it.
Sit back, relax, enjoy! You've got one of the most pleasing pairs of loudspeakers ever made, improved beyond compare...
Hi Lucas,
Yes I agree with you, I'll leave the Super-Tweeter project alone until I get my 66's right. I'll wait for Alan to specify.
I have already changed the binding posts and wiring. Where did you purchase the SEAS tweeters, was it direct from the manufacturer?
Regards
Wayne
I got mine on Fleabay for £19.99 + £7.99 shipping. I haven't seen them as cheap ever. They had been fitted once for listening tests and then replaced with something expensive. Perhaps they weren't appropriate for that build, or perhaps the owner had more money than sense - I don't know. Expect to pay about double that though. It's well worth checking on eBay.
Also, if you have a circuit board type crossover, I'd consider re-making it point to point on a 10" square piece of ply. It will all fit easier, sound better, and teach you a lot about how your crossover really relates to the schematic.
Also, if you have a circuit board type crossover, I'd consider re-making it point to point on a 10" square piece of ply. It will all fit easier, sound better, and teach you a lot about how your crossover really relates to the schematic.
Where can you buy from ?
Hi Wayne,
I forgot to ask yesterday,
can you buy capacitors from overseas via Mail-order,
such as from France or Canada or USA ?
or can you only buy within the UK ?
I ask this because there is a wider range and better choice from overseas than is currently available in the UK, and prices are not much greater including Postage, and may be less for some of the caps.
Also, what is your sound-type preference -
an upfront, immediate type of sound ?
or a larger sound-stage type of sound with a little more depth of soundfield ?
I ask this because different brands of capacitors give sounds towards one type or the other.
I have to go now, but hopefully will be back here tomorrow.
Hi Wayne,
I forgot to ask yesterday,
can you buy capacitors from overseas via Mail-order,
such as from France or Canada or USA ?
or can you only buy within the UK ?
I ask this because there is a wider range and better choice from overseas than is currently available in the UK, and prices are not much greater including Postage, and may be less for some of the caps.
Also, what is your sound-type preference -
an upfront, immediate type of sound ?
or a larger sound-stage type of sound with a little more depth of soundfield ?
I ask this because different brands of capacitors give sounds towards one type or the other.
I have to go now, but hopefully will be back here tomorrow.
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Hi Alan,
My credit is good so I don't see why I can't buy from anywhere. I prefer the larger sound-stage type of sound with a little more depth of sound field.
I have looked at ordering the SEAS tweeters. I have emailed 'Europe- Audio' as they are currently out of stock.
If anyone knows of somewhere else I can order the SEAS from please let me know!
Regards
Wayne
Why not from Wilmslow ?
I though I saw the SEAS H737 on Wilmslow Audio's web-site ...
and there is where you have the Credit from the return of the Morels.
If Wilmslow haven't got any, and none soon,
then contact the UK distributer:- Arena Electronics ...
though sometimes their web-site does not access.
If that happens, go to:
HI-FI WORLD MAGAZINE - THE UK'S EXPERT AUDIO MAGAZINE
and go to their "World Designs" page, and from there to their Parts page.
They sell some SEAS models, but not that tweeter, however they probably have a Link to Arena's page that will open ... Arena have at least 2 web-access points ... and of course I have forgotten how to find the 2nd, thus why I advise as above.
If still no success, go to:
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - Home
and try to access Arena - or whatever name the UK distributer is listed as there - or email SEAS there and ask.
Arena Electronics do sell SEAS drivers direct via some facility in the UK ...
I have forgotten where and don't have time to look now as I really have to go now.
I though I saw the SEAS H737 on Wilmslow Audio's web-site ...
and there is where you have the Credit from the return of the Morels.
If Wilmslow haven't got any, and none soon,
then contact the UK distributer:- Arena Electronics ...
though sometimes their web-site does not access.
If that happens, go to:
HI-FI WORLD MAGAZINE - THE UK'S EXPERT AUDIO MAGAZINE
and go to their "World Designs" page, and from there to their Parts page.
They sell some SEAS models, but not that tweeter, however they probably have a Link to Arena's page that will open ... Arena have at least 2 web-access points ... and of course I have forgotten how to find the 2nd, thus why I advise as above.
If still no success, go to:
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - Home
and try to access Arena - or whatever name the UK distributer is listed as there - or email SEAS there and ask.
Arena Electronics do sell SEAS drivers direct via some facility in the UK ...
I have forgotten where and don't have time to look now as I really have to go now.
Wimslow do have them listed:
https://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_36&products_id=1092
https://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_36&products_id=1092
Wimslow has possibly barred Wayne from any further business.
Hi,
I think you're probably right. I'll go to them a last resort. I think their feathers are a bit ruffled due to my dithering about! The last I heard from them was after initially agreeing to source the resistors from Farnell's for me they have now said they are unable to!
Regards
Wayne
A quick update
Hi Alan,
just to let you know I have ordered a pair of SEAS 19TFF1 tweeters from Audio-Components.co.uk. As you already know they are linked as a U.K. distributor on the Jantzen homepage. Also as you will know they stock all sorts of capacitors and other components. They are currently out of stock but will be delivered end of next week.
Regards
Wayne
Hi Alan,
just to let you know I have ordered a pair of SEAS 19TFF1 tweeters from Audio-Components.co.uk. As you already know they are linked as a U.K. distributor on the Jantzen homepage. Also as you will know they stock all sorts of capacitors and other components. They are currently out of stock but will be delivered end of next week.
Regards
Wayne
Buying for DIY
UPDATE:-
It seems that Arena Electronics are no longer the distributor for SEAS products in the UK,
and Arena may no longer be in business, given the departure a while ago of the very industry-knowledgeable person who established the SEAS distributorship there along with that of some other products.
I have also found their SEAS direct sales web-site, but it is not currently active.
About Wimslow Audio:-
Hi Wayne,
I think you have made two mistakes:
(1) - Wimslow allowed the return of the Morel tweeters that had no faults, but that simply you did not like.
It is of benefit to D.I.Y. that some companies have such policies,
however every company has to make money to stay in business - to pay wages; rent of premises; electricity bills, etc ... thus has to make Sales.
If diyers do not reciprocate when permitted return of products by then buying alternate products, then the companies will eventually stop this returns' policy, and then we will all be worse off.
I think you should buy the SEAS tweeters from Wimslow in fairness to them.
It is worth maintaining good relations with suppliers.
(2) - the Resistors - OK, if Wimslow offered to "source" these then they have to be responsible for offering, however my experience is that it is not reliable to attempt to buy parts from sellers that do not list those parts in their catalogs nor list that they are "sourcers" of products they do not normally stock.
It is usually more reliable to buy from sellers who do list the exact parts one wants, as then correct details about availability can be more accurately stated.
I could have complied you a list of sufficient resistors for your various ideas to meet the Farnell minimum purchase requirement.
I have been trying to find out from you what your actual priorities are so that I can decide the optimum resistors.
I realize that you are not sure of some applications, thus need to ask questions so as to be better able to make decisions, and then it is understandable that you may decide to change plans, but PLEASE , if you want me to continue to assist with your specific case,
ask ALL your questions before you Order anything if you want to try to be cost-effective.
The optimum result will not be determined any faster by any other method.
Actually, if you buy something you cannot use, it is not my problem,
and it is your right for you to decide what you want to Order, and when, and where from, thus proceed however you wish to from this point,
and eventually you will learn what most of the rest of us have learnt by experience.
I will address each of your questions when I have the time available.
I am being asked a lot of questions in two Threads in this Forum, and I have a back-log in both to yet address.
UPDATE:-
It seems that Arena Electronics are no longer the distributor for SEAS products in the UK,
and Arena may no longer be in business, given the departure a while ago of the very industry-knowledgeable person who established the SEAS distributorship there along with that of some other products.
I have also found their SEAS direct sales web-site, but it is not currently active.
About Wimslow Audio:-
Hi Wayne,
I think you have made two mistakes:
(1) - Wimslow allowed the return of the Morel tweeters that had no faults, but that simply you did not like.
It is of benefit to D.I.Y. that some companies have such policies,
however every company has to make money to stay in business - to pay wages; rent of premises; electricity bills, etc ... thus has to make Sales.
If diyers do not reciprocate when permitted return of products by then buying alternate products, then the companies will eventually stop this returns' policy, and then we will all be worse off.
I think you should buy the SEAS tweeters from Wimslow in fairness to them.
It is worth maintaining good relations with suppliers.
(2) - the Resistors - OK, if Wimslow offered to "source" these then they have to be responsible for offering, however my experience is that it is not reliable to attempt to buy parts from sellers that do not list those parts in their catalogs nor list that they are "sourcers" of products they do not normally stock.
It is usually more reliable to buy from sellers who do list the exact parts one wants, as then correct details about availability can be more accurately stated.
I could have complied you a list of sufficient resistors for your various ideas to meet the Farnell minimum purchase requirement.
I have been trying to find out from you what your actual priorities are so that I can decide the optimum resistors.
I realize that you are not sure of some applications, thus need to ask questions so as to be better able to make decisions, and then it is understandable that you may decide to change plans, but PLEASE , if you want me to continue to assist with your specific case,
ask ALL your questions before you Order anything if you want to try to be cost-effective.
The optimum result will not be determined any faster by any other method.
Actually, if you buy something you cannot use, it is not my problem,
and it is your right for you to decide what you want to Order, and when, and where from, thus proceed however you wish to from this point,
and eventually you will learn what most of the rest of us have learnt by experience.
I will address each of your questions when I have the time available.
I am being asked a lot of questions in two Threads in this Forum, and I have a back-log in both to yet address.
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A quick note
Hi Alan,
I was only joking, they were fine about it. Anyway I'm clear what I want to do. That is to get the SEAS installed and then hopefully with your help update the crossovers to get the best out of my 66's. Replacing and adding up-to-date components, the best I can afford. I know the money I could spend is almost open ended so I need to the extent of the components required then I can budget for it all. I know there is no rush but you know what it's like when you have a certain sound in your head you want. If it makes any sense the one thing the sound of the speakers with the Realistic Super Tweeters certainly showed that they were capable of hearing a pin drop on to a high hat cymbal with amazing clarity. They were just emphasised that top end too much. I have a Linn LP12 and when listening to vinyl through the Celestions the most prominent sound was the record's surface noise. Now I know they don't sound that way when I connect to my Ruark's!
Best Regards
Wayne
Hi Alan,
I was only joking, they were fine about it. Anyway I'm clear what I want to do. That is to get the SEAS installed and then hopefully with your help update the crossovers to get the best out of my 66's. Replacing and adding up-to-date components, the best I can afford. I know the money I could spend is almost open ended so I need to the extent of the components required then I can budget for it all. I know there is no rush but you know what it's like when you have a certain sound in your head you want. If it makes any sense the one thing the sound of the speakers with the Realistic Super Tweeters certainly showed that they were capable of hearing a pin drop on to a high hat cymbal with amazing clarity. They were just emphasised that top end too much. I have a Linn LP12 and when listening to vinyl through the Celestions the most prominent sound was the record's surface noise. Now I know they don't sound that way when I connect to my Ruark's!
Best Regards
Wayne
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Capacitors for specific sound, and Budget for ?
Hi again Wayne, - and also to "tojohndillonesq"/SC if you are following this,
for Sound-field it is priority to get the midrange correct, and next the treble,
and the bass is less of a concern in that aspect -{but NOT irrelevant}.
Regarding capacitors and sound, the most expensive one will be the 24uF cap at the input of the midrange filter,
regardless of whether one uses a single 24uF or 25uF cap, or a Parallel connected pair of 12uF caps ...
and which option depends on what each manufacturer offers.
At least a third of the total mids plus treble caps' cost will be for the 2 that input cap, and perhaps almost half the cost.
Caps for the bass filter, though larger uF, will not cost more than midrange caps, because for the critical audio determinant there a cheaper option is available.
The same Brand of cap as for the mids and treble could be used in the bass section also, but price then will be very much higher, thus I recommend you allocate your Budget to maximise the sound quality you want in the mids and treble, and buy what is adequate for the bass that will not significantly reduce the benefits of the better caps in the mids and treble.
What is the Total amount you will extend to for capacitors ?
Do you want all caps to be the same brand ?
or do you want the choice split as I described above ?
or do you want some other option, and if so please specify what ?
Keep in mind there will be about another 10% cost for Shipping -(more if you want Express or Priority shipping).
Likely for less expensive bass caps, they will be from a different seller than the mids + treble caps, thus two Shipping costs.
Post the Budget limits only for the Capacitors, not for the Shipping,
nor for Resistors because the resistors will be much lower price than the capacitors.
Hi again Wayne, - and also to "tojohndillonesq"/SC if you are following this,
for Sound-field it is priority to get the midrange correct, and next the treble,
and the bass is less of a concern in that aspect -{but NOT irrelevant}.
Regarding capacitors and sound, the most expensive one will be the 24uF cap at the input of the midrange filter,
regardless of whether one uses a single 24uF or 25uF cap, or a Parallel connected pair of 12uF caps ...
and which option depends on what each manufacturer offers.
At least a third of the total mids plus treble caps' cost will be for the 2 that input cap, and perhaps almost half the cost.
Caps for the bass filter, though larger uF, will not cost more than midrange caps, because for the critical audio determinant there a cheaper option is available.
The same Brand of cap as for the mids and treble could be used in the bass section also, but price then will be very much higher, thus I recommend you allocate your Budget to maximise the sound quality you want in the mids and treble, and buy what is adequate for the bass that will not significantly reduce the benefits of the better caps in the mids and treble.
What is the Total amount you will extend to for capacitors ?
Do you want all caps to be the same brand ?
or do you want the choice split as I described above ?
or do you want some other option, and if so please specify what ?
Keep in mind there will be about another 10% cost for Shipping -(more if you want Express or Priority shipping).
Likely for less expensive bass caps, they will be from a different seller than the mids + treble caps, thus two Shipping costs.
Post the Budget limits only for the Capacitors, not for the Shipping,
nor for Resistors because the resistors will be much lower price than the capacitors.
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Hi Alan,
I think I understand the bulk of the money spent on the replacements caps is best spent on the treble and mid-range.
I' not sure if buying from a single manufacturer is best, although I would imagine that they would spend more time designing their components to work at their best with other components in their own range. But if the bass caps are less fussy regarding this issue and it would work out cheaper to source them from different manufacturers then so be it.
As far as the money I spend goes, that's a difficult one. For example, when looking at the 'Claritycap' range of capacitors my first instinct is to go for the most expensive. on closer inspection this is complicated first by the cost itself, which can be very considerable, and then the values(uF) and tolerance contained in each range. Then there is the physical size of them, which do seem to be rather large and possibly difficult to accommodate on the crossover board.
I also need to take into account my limited experience in building electrical circuits and I certainly wouldn't want to allow my lack of dexterity with a soldering iron etc. to ruin any of these expensive components whilst assembling them!
I would imagine it will be a compromise of these variables that governs my decision on how much to spend.
I would say that I have an overall budget of approximately £200 - £300 for the crossovers project (not including the speakers).
I have been looking at other aspects of the crossover design and was wondering what you make of these following points?
There appears to be steel bolts and nuts retaining the inductors to the board – if they are steel then they are magnetic and will alter the inductance value which will change the crossover response – these should be brass (non-magnetic).
Ideally inductors should be mounted so the windings are at right-angle to one another to minimize mutual inductive coupling.
The inductors are very basic types – upgraded inductors i.e. lower DCR for the 2 in the bass section will improve the tightness of the bass; non-bobbin air-cores will improve the signal path (and clarity) in the mid and top.
Best Regards
Wayne
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Differences on my Celestion 66's crossovers!
Hi Alan,
The one thing I have noticed and am unsure if I have mentioned this before but the capacitor at the bottom of the crossover board if in fact two caps run in parallel. I think their reference numbers are 'C4' & 'C5'. These are rated at 6uF & 24uF respectively. The photos I have seen previously posted from others shows only one capacitor in this place in the circuit. I have tried to attach the photo of my crossover to this posting.
Regards
Wayne.
P.S. I can be flexible regarding the budget, it would just take me longer to accumulate the extra money. I do want to get it right, but as I said it's going to involve a certain amount of compromise and whether extra cost means a pro rata advancement of sound quality.
Wayne.
Hi Alan,
The one thing I have noticed and am unsure if I have mentioned this before but the capacitor at the bottom of the crossover board if in fact two caps run in parallel. I think their reference numbers are 'C4' & 'C5'. These are rated at 6uF & 24uF respectively. The photos I have seen previously posted from others shows only one capacitor in this place in the circuit. I have tried to attach the photo of my crossover to this posting.
Regards
Wayne.
P.S. I can be flexible regarding the budget, it would just take me longer to accumulate the extra money. I do want to get it right, but as I said it's going to involve a certain amount of compromise and whether extra cost means a pro rata advancement of sound quality.
Wayne.
Attachments
It's not unusual to have a 24uF and a 6uF or an 8uF in parallel in the mids section of the 44s and 66s. If they had had a 30uF available at construction, they would certainly have used that instead. It was a question of availability. In some speakers they only put the 24uF. I don't think it's been clarified for sure which is the earlier design and which is the revision. My guess is that the 30uF is the more ideal value.
Regarding improvements vs. cost (or getting good value from your upgrades) my advice is to completely forget upgrading your inductors, at least until you've heard the existing ones with the cap restoration. Buy Jentzen Cross-Caps throughout, Seas 19TFF1 tweeters and Welwyn wirewound resistors. All are plenty good enough, and would have been absolute luxury to the designers had they been available back then (except the resistors perhaps).
More expensive versions of all of the above are available in spades, but all subject to the laws of diminishing returns on these old but lovely speakers. The above components are all of excellent quality, and it is design considerations (such as determining the correct resistor values) that will really elevate your speakers to their full potential.
I heard a story of a man who replaced all of the caps in his 66s and hated the sound, so bought more and more expensive caps time and time again. In the end he went back to the original 30 year old electrolytics and said it was miles better. This is typical dumb upgrader behaviour. He knew nothing of ESR resistors, so of course his Mundorf caps sounded awful - he had changed the design and it had become awful!
Similarly, a hi-fi builder commented on the Pass Labs F5 power amp build page that he found the sound a touch clinical, and said he was going to remove the good metal film resistors and replace them with carbon film resistors, that are much poorer on paper, to "warm things up". The genius amp designer Nelson Pass told him that a simple adjustment in a single resistor value could achieve the same thing without degrading the sound and the man reported that it did.
My point is: Design first, exotic parts ONLY once the design is perfected!
All the best
More expensive versions of all of the above are available in spades, but all subject to the laws of diminishing returns on these old but lovely speakers. The above components are all of excellent quality, and it is design considerations (such as determining the correct resistor values) that will really elevate your speakers to their full potential.
I heard a story of a man who replaced all of the caps in his 66s and hated the sound, so bought more and more expensive caps time and time again. In the end he went back to the original 30 year old electrolytics and said it was miles better. This is typical dumb upgrader behaviour. He knew nothing of ESR resistors, so of course his Mundorf caps sounded awful - he had changed the design and it had become awful!
Similarly, a hi-fi builder commented on the Pass Labs F5 power amp build page that he found the sound a touch clinical, and said he was going to remove the good metal film resistors and replace them with carbon film resistors, that are much poorer on paper, to "warm things up". The genius amp designer Nelson Pass told him that a simple adjustment in a single resistor value could achieve the same thing without degrading the sound and the man reported that it did.
My point is: Design first, exotic parts ONLY once the design is perfected!
All the best
Budget for crossover upgade!
Hi Lucas,
I am of course inclined to agree with you. I seem to remember you have gone through this exercise before? What sort of budget did you in fact have in mind before you started? and what was the final cost?
Are you sure about leaving the Inductors as they are? I am worried about my physically being able to mount all of these new expensive components myself. Did you start with a new crossover board? or adapt the old ones?
Best Regards
Wayne
Hi Lucas,
I am of course inclined to agree with you. I seem to remember you have gone through this exercise before? What sort of budget did you in fact have in mind before you started? and what was the final cost?
Are you sure about leaving the Inductors as they are? I am worried about my physically being able to mount all of these new expensive components myself. Did you start with a new crossover board? or adapt the old ones?
Best Regards
Wayne
Oh, by all means change their physical layout in relationship to each other if that is what has been recommended and it assists in fitting everything in. My point was more that they are of good enough quality to not need upgrading in a hurry.
Fitting new ones will complicate everything - it will mean that you are in a position of changing every component, and then there will be so many variables that it becomes far too hard to determine what is happening and because of what. I was for many years a professional classical guitar maker, and know well that making refinements needs to be done in small stages to properly evaluate the direct effect of the changes.
I used the existing crossover boards in my 44s, but I haven't fully upgraded by bass section yet, and that is by far the largest part. The existing boards do have those useful solder points that seem to work well. A 12" square piece of ply is what I'd use if changing it, strapping caps and inductors to the board through drilled holes with plastic ties and wiring point to point. I don't think it's necessary though.
If you really want to upgrade them, I would also consider some cabinet damping materials upgrade. Panels can be lined with adhesive material that reduces cabinet vibration, and the foam filler is not the best stuff - hemp wadding is said to be better by some.
Fitting new ones will complicate everything - it will mean that you are in a position of changing every component, and then there will be so many variables that it becomes far too hard to determine what is happening and because of what. I was for many years a professional classical guitar maker, and know well that making refinements needs to be done in small stages to properly evaluate the direct effect of the changes.
I used the existing crossover boards in my 44s, but I haven't fully upgraded by bass section yet, and that is by far the largest part. The existing boards do have those useful solder points that seem to work well. A 12" square piece of ply is what I'd use if changing it, strapping caps and inductors to the board through drilled holes with plastic ties and wiring point to point. I don't think it's necessary though.
If you really want to upgrade them, I would also consider some cabinet damping materials upgrade. Panels can be lined with adhesive material that reduces cabinet vibration, and the foam filler is not the best stuff - hemp wadding is said to be better by some.
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