I'm just curious what you guys spend on parts to make a good crossover. I decided to redesign the crossovers in my speakers and use some better quality parts in the process, I believe I just spent around 200 to 250 dollars for all the parts needed. I used air core inductors for the woofers, and copper foil for the tweeters. I used Clarity Cap capacitors for both drivers, and will be combining values to get the right value, using the SA with a PX on some of the very large values. I know I went kinda crazy with the high end parts, but man I didn't expect it to be that expensive. Actually the Inductors are so large I'm quite certain they wont fit in the speakers, so I have decided to mount them in aluminum project boxes as well.
Incase anyone is curious, the drivers are all Focal drivers, the W-cone 5 1/4" midbass and TC90 TD5B tweeter. I wanted to use the much better TC120, but at the time money was an issue, and this was cheaper. Some day I might build new boxes and upgrade to the TC120.
Incase anyone is curious, the drivers are all Focal drivers, the W-cone 5 1/4" midbass and TC90 TD5B tweeter. I wanted to use the much better TC120, but at the time money was an issue, and this was cheaper. Some day I might build new boxes and upgrade to the TC120.
I'm going to get a lot of flack on this, but I spent approximately $16.00 USD on the series crossovers that I used on my "Bondo Beauties" that I entered in the last "Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest" this summer. I am very sceptical about the ability to actually hear any difference between cheap parts and the Audiophile approved $uper $tuff.
The one exception, IMHO, is with inductors. Fairly big aircore inductors using heavy wire is not only superior to cheap small guage wire inductors, but audible as well.
FYI: the "Bondo Beauties" placed 2nd overall for best sound out of 16 entries. A couple of entries had over $1300 in drivers and crossovers, yet didn't rank as high.
YMMV.
Best Regards,
TerryO
The one exception, IMHO, is with inductors. Fairly big aircore inductors using heavy wire is not only superior to cheap small guage wire inductors, but audible as well.
FYI: the "Bondo Beauties" placed 2nd overall for best sound out of 16 entries. A couple of entries had over $1300 in drivers and crossovers, yet didn't rank as high.
YMMV.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Not sure really how much i spent last time around, however i usually spend 2-3x as much as needed, since i try different components etc tweaking (however i have them for later use). I think good quality air core inductors are generally rediculously over priced, winding your own is a good mothod to save plenty of cash.
As little as I can.
I've measured and listened to exotics against more mainstream good components - I prefer to keep the money.
The exotics in my experience (and there have been many) usually pick some meaningless "problem" and go to extreme measures to minimize its effect - to something less than zero? Of course this makes them very expensive and if you can't hear the (night and day) difference, then you must not be worthy and should go away and die.
Stick to polypropylene - Solen fast caps are reasonably priced and good, you will never NEED anything more expensive. For conjugates - Bennic mylar are fine. For very large values, Bennic mylar bypassed with a small value Solen fast cap.
Solen perfect lay - 18 or 16 is fine for all values up to about 1.5 mH - your design needs to factor in the small resistance of the coils. Bigger values - use a laminated core or you will have to spend more on the inductor than most do on the driver or live with a large resistive loss. The key with inductors is a neat tight winding with minimal gaps. I have bulk magnet wire in 16 and 18 gauge to wind whatever I need in a pinch (my home-spun usually has a slightly higher DCR, and is not as pretty as Solen, but no one I've met was able to hear a difference.)
Resistors - only non-inductive wirewound - unless you want to account for the minor inductance in your design - in which case Bennic is best value. Best values for non-inductives are Daytons and Ohmite (Richardson Electronics - offices near you.)
If you are serious about this hobby, then it is a real time and aggravation saver to maintain an inventory of a variety of values. For example - I currently have several thousand caps in my collection. If the total cost of a passive crossover approaches about 1/4 the cost of the drivers, then I have either chosen poorly designed or poorly matched drivers and should rethink the design.
I've measured and listened to exotics against more mainstream good components - I prefer to keep the money.
The exotics in my experience (and there have been many) usually pick some meaningless "problem" and go to extreme measures to minimize its effect - to something less than zero? Of course this makes them very expensive and if you can't hear the (night and day) difference, then you must not be worthy and should go away and die.
Stick to polypropylene - Solen fast caps are reasonably priced and good, you will never NEED anything more expensive. For conjugates - Bennic mylar are fine. For very large values, Bennic mylar bypassed with a small value Solen fast cap.
Solen perfect lay - 18 or 16 is fine for all values up to about 1.5 mH - your design needs to factor in the small resistance of the coils. Bigger values - use a laminated core or you will have to spend more on the inductor than most do on the driver or live with a large resistive loss. The key with inductors is a neat tight winding with minimal gaps. I have bulk magnet wire in 16 and 18 gauge to wind whatever I need in a pinch (my home-spun usually has a slightly higher DCR, and is not as pretty as Solen, but no one I've met was able to hear a difference.)
Resistors - only non-inductive wirewound - unless you want to account for the minor inductance in your design - in which case Bennic is best value. Best values for non-inductives are Daytons and Ohmite (Richardson Electronics - offices near you.)
If you are serious about this hobby, then it is a real time and aggravation saver to maintain an inventory of a variety of values. For example - I currently have several thousand caps in my collection. If the total cost of a passive crossover approaches about 1/4 the cost of the drivers, then I have either chosen poorly designed or poorly matched drivers and should rethink the design.
Actually the caps I used are priced around the same as Solens, and the ones I got were mostly on sale, so somewhat less expensive. I compared on some of the more expensive caps, just to see, and it was the same. I probably should have tried some overstock mylar caps bypassed with a better one, but It would have been maybe a 20 dollar savings. The inductors were the bulk of the cost. Again, I didn't necassarily go all out, I compared the large guage air cores to the copper foils, and the price difference was about 5 dollars, so I went with the copper foils for the tweeter, which has a 3uh inductor on it, and that was quite expensive. For the woofer I used a cheaper air core, but it was a .8uh inductor, so it wasn't very expensive to begin with. The tweeter crossover was the expensive one, it has two largish inductors, a 3uh and a 1.2uh inductor. Added up quick. For the resistors, I used non-inductive wire wound from mills, cost was pretty small in the scope of things.
I used to spend a fortune on exotic caps (more money=sound better, right?) and foil inductors, and even had bulk metal foil resistors customa made once for a special project. I've recently stopped spending more for components that weren't somehow measurably better, though, such as capacitors with lower esl or esr, or better dissipation factor.
To more directly answer your question, my last project cost about $45 per speaker for a 2-way first/third order with a resonance trap on the woofer and an RC tapering network on the tweeter, not including the circuit board, 12ga. wire, terminal cups, etc. It was perhaps a factor that I built five similar speakers at once for a home theater, but I suspect I would've spent more money quite easily if I thought there'd be value in doing so.
Good luck with your projects,
John
To more directly answer your question, my last project cost about $45 per speaker for a 2-way first/third order with a resonance trap on the woofer and an RC tapering network on the tweeter, not including the circuit board, 12ga. wire, terminal cups, etc. It was perhaps a factor that I built five similar speakers at once for a home theater, but I suspect I would've spent more money quite easily if I thought there'd be value in doing so.
Good luck with your projects,
John
A lotta dough!
While this is generally a denizen of frugalphiles, I'm more inclined to spend a significant amount of cash on the XO. As has been mentioned, big aircores are the way to go, and they don't come cheap....
Good caps cost.... solens or better are my tendency, solens do ring microphonically though, some of the better cap constructions damp that better.
Sadly, XOs, just like drivers, are a diminishing returns thing. There are good (great?) drivers at very affordable prices out there, but a $10 MCM fullrange will never be a manger/lowther/aer/fostex.
For me, I take a building block approach- since I like to do multiple driver configs, generally with several enclosures, I wire up the XO using binding posts to connect parts- works well and is quickly adjustable, not to mention- I can use the somewhat more spendy stuff without having to dedicate it to a design.
I do sometimes regret spending for the big box of 10 awg solen perfect lay aircores though....
While this is generally a denizen of frugalphiles, I'm more inclined to spend a significant amount of cash on the XO. As has been mentioned, big aircores are the way to go, and they don't come cheap....
Good caps cost.... solens or better are my tendency, solens do ring microphonically though, some of the better cap constructions damp that better.
Sadly, XOs, just like drivers, are a diminishing returns thing. There are good (great?) drivers at very affordable prices out there, but a $10 MCM fullrange will never be a manger/lowther/aer/fostex.
For me, I take a building block approach- since I like to do multiple driver configs, generally with several enclosures, I wire up the XO using binding posts to connect parts- works well and is quickly adjustable, not to mention- I can use the somewhat more spendy stuff without having to dedicate it to a design.
I do sometimes regret spending for the big box of 10 awg solen perfect lay aircores though....
14 AWG air core round copper coils, Solen or Mundorf Mcap, Sandcast resistors is 80% good.
14 AWG air core round copper coils, ClarityCap, Sandcast resistors is 90% good.
12 AWG air core round copper coils, Auricaps and Mills is 95% near the top.
99% is Mundorf Supreme Silver-Gold, 12 AWG Alphacore ribbons, Caddock.
100% is 12AWG Jensen ribbons, Duelund flat caps and silver resistors.
All the above are leaps and bounds better than what found 9 out of ten times in under 5 kilobuck commercial speakers.
There is much much space for preference in makes and cooking in the rough categories mentioned.
14 AWG air core round copper coils, ClarityCap, Sandcast resistors is 90% good.
12 AWG air core round copper coils, Auricaps and Mills is 95% near the top.
99% is Mundorf Supreme Silver-Gold, 12 AWG Alphacore ribbons, Caddock.
100% is 12AWG Jensen ribbons, Duelund flat caps and silver resistors.
All the above are leaps and bounds better than what found 9 out of ten times in under 5 kilobuck commercial speakers.
There is much much space for preference in makes and cooking in the rough categories mentioned.
pinkmouse said:
Agreed. Unfortunately, not all of us have the ability to do exclusively active. In my 'big rig', I'm all active, but the bedroom rig must by necessity be passive.
salas said:
Interesting roundup, putting the caps as the more prioritized matter. The Duelund are indeed excellent.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.