As many of you know I am no longer living in FL. Instead, we have moved my family to a very small town in Wyoming called Rock River. There is about 235 peeps here total, and I think that number actually includes several of the surrounding ranches...lol. They have a very nice school here which covers K-12 grades.
Anyhow, at the school they have an auditorium where the hold "movie night" every other week for free for the townsfolk. This is sponsored and put on by non-school related people and their personal equipment. Their equipment list consists of an el' cheapo DVD player, DLP projector, an amp and one pro/DJ style speaker. Their screen is several large white posterboards taped together. Overall, not a terrible picture, but as you can imagine, the sound leaves one wanting for more.
So, I have decided to put together a pair of speakers and an amp to power them with. I may even go as far as putting together a real, mo' betta screen as well. Oh yeah, of course no movie on the big screen would be complete without prodigious amounts of bass...agreed?
Here is where you come in folks, I need your help with ideas, parts, funds, or whatever you can throw in the basket here.
Vendors, if you can help/sponsor...please feel free to drop an email if you can help with parts and such.
I will get the details on the room as far as dimensions and such later today.
Until then, let me know your thoughts and ideas here please. Remembering of course that this project needs to stay on the cheap as much as possible.
Noidster
Anyhow, at the school they have an auditorium where the hold "movie night" every other week for free for the townsfolk. This is sponsored and put on by non-school related people and their personal equipment. Their equipment list consists of an el' cheapo DVD player, DLP projector, an amp and one pro/DJ style speaker. Their screen is several large white posterboards taped together. Overall, not a terrible picture, but as you can imagine, the sound leaves one wanting for more.
So, I have decided to put together a pair of speakers and an amp to power them with. I may even go as far as putting together a real, mo' betta screen as well. Oh yeah, of course no movie on the big screen would be complete without prodigious amounts of bass...agreed?
Here is where you come in folks, I need your help with ideas, parts, funds, or whatever you can throw in the basket here.
Vendors, if you can help/sponsor...please feel free to drop an email if you can help with parts and such.
I will get the details on the room as far as dimensions and such later today.
Until then, let me know your thoughts and ideas here please. Remembering of course that this project needs to stay on the cheap as much as possible.
Noidster
Look at the Mach5 Audio MJ-18 subwoofer for covering the bottom end. Should displace a ton of air on the cheap.
http://www.mach5audio.com/index-2.html
http://www.mach5audio.com/index-2.html
Hey thanks for the reply. I will indeed contact them about shipping and such overall price for a pair of these bad boyz.
However, I do think we will need more output overall though since the auditorium seats about 150 people total. It is very theater-like in that it has movie-type seating that is on an incline from back to front. Each row of seats has between 10-12 seats across and there is about 15 rows of seats if I am recalling correctly. Overall a very nice room for such a thing but the complete lack of good sound on movie night disturbs me.
At first my thoughts are going with some largish arrays of some sort.
As for the subs, I was thinking along the lines of 4 Q15's or the likes in a large ported enclosure powered by 1000 watts or so. But now that I have looked at the Mach5 18"ers I will be contacting them about it all, thanks.
For the arrays, I was contemplating using the Dayton DC130BS-4 5-1/4" due to it's relatively cheap price and higher sensitivity rating. Maybe 8 per side...maybe more?
In the tweeter category, I am just not sure as of yet.
I'll be honest with you, if we can get a vendor or two or three to pitch in here and help sponsor the project, that'll be the deciding factor of what drivers get used. If not, then it will be up to my wallet and we will shoot for cheap and easy here...lol.
Noidster
However, I do think we will need more output overall though since the auditorium seats about 150 people total. It is very theater-like in that it has movie-type seating that is on an incline from back to front. Each row of seats has between 10-12 seats across and there is about 15 rows of seats if I am recalling correctly. Overall a very nice room for such a thing but the complete lack of good sound on movie night disturbs me.
At first my thoughts are going with some largish arrays of some sort.
As for the subs, I was thinking along the lines of 4 Q15's or the likes in a large ported enclosure powered by 1000 watts or so. But now that I have looked at the Mach5 18"ers I will be contacting them about it all, thanks.
For the arrays, I was contemplating using the Dayton DC130BS-4 5-1/4" due to it's relatively cheap price and higher sensitivity rating. Maybe 8 per side...maybe more?
In the tweeter category, I am just not sure as of yet.
I'll be honest with you, if we can get a vendor or two or three to pitch in here and help sponsor the project, that'll be the deciding factor of what drivers get used. If not, then it will be up to my wallet and we will shoot for cheap and easy here...lol.
Noidster
We are in Rock River because this is where my wife was born and raised. Anyhow, I am not wanting to just go used pro route because I think it would be greater gift with more heartfelt if done DIY with my hands. I am also including two of the seniors in this project as they will be assisting me with parts and pieces in their woodshop hopefully.
Noidster
Noidster
Welps, AJ from the PE board has generously donated an older Pioneer receiver for the project. This receiver will support us with a solid 200 watts RMS per channel.
As for now we are going to try some arrays using 16 of the Onkyo buyout 4"x6" drivers coupled with 32 of the Onkyo buyout 3/8" tweets per side. Will prolly just run a simple textbook cap and coil on the drivers at first and see what happens.
The subwoofer category is still up in the air but we will get that nailed down on the cheap soon as well I hope.
Your thoughts on all of this...???
Noidster
As for now we are going to try some arrays using 16 of the Onkyo buyout 4"x6" drivers coupled with 32 of the Onkyo buyout 3/8" tweets per side. Will prolly just run a simple textbook cap and coil on the drivers at first and see what happens.
The subwoofer category is still up in the air but we will get that nailed down on the cheap soon as well I hope.
Your thoughts on all of this...???
Noidster
To reach 15 rows back you'll probably want to go much taller. Maybe double up and make it a foldable unit. Personally, I would go OB for more natural dialogue. For the bass, use a number of cheap drivers, say 8, each in separate cabs. Spread them out in a horizontal array on 4-6ft centers depending on the room width and XO frequency.
Keep an eye on www.MusicSupplyCenter.com for their scratch-n-dent stuff. I picked up 6 of their Warrior 15's for $20 ea that would have been perfect for what you need. If you got a deal like that you could even go OB for the woofers. No use trying to go much below 30hz in a school auditorium as you'll likely just stimulate a ton of room rattles. An OB array would really help reduce rattles by focusing the output in the listening area.
As long as those Onkyo's are decent sounding with arrays you should be able to create better sound for that size audience than the vast majority of theatres. It sounds like a fun project, and don't worry that 200W is more than enough for the mains. Also, line arrays is definitely the way to go because they spread the SPL so much more evenly across a room which would enable the screen to be closer to the audience and improve the size ratio.
Talk to one of the screen manufacturers and try to pick up a large piece of glass beaded material for a proper screen. The extra gain will enable a larger screen size with the same projector. Projectors are becoming so powerful that they sell very little of their glass beaded screens. As long as the audience isn't more than 20 degrees or so off axis, glass beaded is ideal for your use, despite being an older technology. A larger screen is warranted with the larger sound you are soon to provide.
Keep an eye on www.MusicSupplyCenter.com for their scratch-n-dent stuff. I picked up 6 of their Warrior 15's for $20 ea that would have been perfect for what you need. If you got a deal like that you could even go OB for the woofers. No use trying to go much below 30hz in a school auditorium as you'll likely just stimulate a ton of room rattles. An OB array would really help reduce rattles by focusing the output in the listening area.
As long as those Onkyo's are decent sounding with arrays you should be able to create better sound for that size audience than the vast majority of theatres. It sounds like a fun project, and don't worry that 200W is more than enough for the mains. Also, line arrays is definitely the way to go because they spread the SPL so much more evenly across a room which would enable the screen to be closer to the audience and improve the size ratio.
Talk to one of the screen manufacturers and try to pick up a large piece of glass beaded material for a proper screen. The extra gain will enable a larger screen size with the same projector. Projectors are becoming so powerful that they sell very little of their glass beaded screens. As long as the audience isn't more than 20 degrees or so off axis, glass beaded is ideal for your use, despite being an older technology. A larger screen is warranted with the larger sound you are soon to provide.
OK my background is in cinema sound, and I know a bit about screens.
Firstly I would forget about arrays, cinema sound works better and is mixed for horn loaded mid and high sound. This allows clearer dialogue in average to poor accoustic sounding rooms by preventing early reflections.
P. Audio has several speakers drivers at affordable prices, A simple 12 inch or 15 inch E series 200w RMS woofer and a small compression driver with a one inch horn (60x40 or 90x40 pattern) plus crossover in the 1.5k range, in a solid ported box would do. perhahs 2 to start with, less than $500. at 97db per watt, your 200w reciever would be extremly loud when needed, films have quite a dynamic range.
Ultimatley, you could add a centre channel, and several wide/ midrange speakers around the room 4-8 as the surround channel.
and a subwoofer. P. audio e 18 is cheap and loud 97 db@1w 1 metre.
As for a big 16/9 screen, one of the cheapest ways is to get a large sheet of calico (cheap) and staple it on a timber frame then paint with a flat plastic paint, as the paint dries the fabric shrinks, giving a very flat surface. Black gaffa tape around the edges gives a real cinema feel, and a reference for black.
Next thing you know the shed or small hall will be just like a real cinema
Ps cheap dlp projectors tends to rainbow on gain style screens, glass beaded style ect. the flat paint style on calico, if rainbow is an issue, gray shade of paint can minimise this, but is usually required only if the screen is small.
Firstly I would forget about arrays, cinema sound works better and is mixed for horn loaded mid and high sound. This allows clearer dialogue in average to poor accoustic sounding rooms by preventing early reflections.
P. Audio has several speakers drivers at affordable prices, A simple 12 inch or 15 inch E series 200w RMS woofer and a small compression driver with a one inch horn (60x40 or 90x40 pattern) plus crossover in the 1.5k range, in a solid ported box would do. perhahs 2 to start with, less than $500. at 97db per watt, your 200w reciever would be extremly loud when needed, films have quite a dynamic range.
Ultimatley, you could add a centre channel, and several wide/ midrange speakers around the room 4-8 as the surround channel.
and a subwoofer. P. audio e 18 is cheap and loud 97 db@1w 1 metre.
As for a big 16/9 screen, one of the cheapest ways is to get a large sheet of calico (cheap) and staple it on a timber frame then paint with a flat plastic paint, as the paint dries the fabric shrinks, giving a very flat surface. Black gaffa tape around the edges gives a real cinema feel, and a reference for black.
Next thing you know the shed or small hall will be just like a real cinema
Ps cheap dlp projectors tends to rainbow on gain style screens, glass beaded style ect. the flat paint style on calico, if rainbow is an issue, gray shade of paint can minimise this, but is usually required only if the screen is small.
These links will show you how a good sounding small cinema should be set up. obviously JBL is expensive but atypical of a quality cinema sound systems
cinema speaker setting up / JBL
JBL small systems
Note
THX style of speakers need a well thought accoustic's, standard range works better in reverberant or normal enviroments.
cinema speaker setting up / JBL
JBL small systems
Note
THX style of speakers need a well thought accoustic's, standard range works better in reverberant or normal enviroments.
Thank you everyone for your input. All info has been very helpful so far.
To address a few things mentioned, the screen and speakers are actually up on a stage so speaker height will not be an issue I do not believe. It should damn sure be better than a single, cheap dj style speaker in the center of the floor in front of the stage.
As for power requirements, I am thinking the 200 rms wpc should be enough with the lines as they should be well up into the mid-to-high 90's as far as sensitivity goes. As mentioned, this power source has been donated so we will definitely try the free route first.
For the screen, IF we end up going there, I will likely use Behr "Silverscreen" paint from Home Depot as I have used it successfully in the past. But, we won't be sure about doing a screen for another couple of weeks.
We are going to stick with the Onkyo line arrays for now due to finances, and see how they sound. If it fails miserably then we will adjust and shoot towards a more cinema style design. I am pretty sure though that as mentioned before, that they will sound far better than the single dj style speaker being used currently in the floor in front of the stage.
Thanks again for everyones input to this point...
Noidster
To address a few things mentioned, the screen and speakers are actually up on a stage so speaker height will not be an issue I do not believe. It should damn sure be better than a single, cheap dj style speaker in the center of the floor in front of the stage.
As for power requirements, I am thinking the 200 rms wpc should be enough with the lines as they should be well up into the mid-to-high 90's as far as sensitivity goes. As mentioned, this power source has been donated so we will definitely try the free route first.
For the screen, IF we end up going there, I will likely use Behr "Silverscreen" paint from Home Depot as I have used it successfully in the past. But, we won't be sure about doing a screen for another couple of weeks.
We are going to stick with the Onkyo line arrays for now due to finances, and see how they sound. If it fails miserably then we will adjust and shoot towards a more cinema style design. I am pretty sure though that as mentioned before, that they will sound far better than the single dj style speaker being used currently in the floor in front of the stage.
Thanks again for everyones input to this point...
Noidster
Well good luck, It sounds like alot of fun, I must admit the idea of the whole community coming together for a movie, sharing the experience, is far more enjoyable and memorable than can ever be achieved at home.
I have a single chip 4 segment color wheel DLP projector at home, and it took me quite a long time to develop a screen that minimised the rainbow effect , If you are using this stlyle of projector, I suspect that a silver screen will cause you some problems as it is a gain style screen. Personally from experience I would start with a flat white paint, and if the image is not bright enough, then move to a gain style.
Film, LCD or 3 chip DLP would not have a problem with a silver or glass beaded gain screen. In fact best results could be achieved this way.
For the sharpest image use a DVD player that has the Progressive Scan feature. The difference to the quality of the wide shots is not subtle.
Here is a picture of a cinema that I custom built a speaker system for, Dispite its looks it is only 10 years old
I have a single chip 4 segment color wheel DLP projector at home, and it took me quite a long time to develop a screen that minimised the rainbow effect , If you are using this stlyle of projector, I suspect that a silver screen will cause you some problems as it is a gain style screen. Personally from experience I would start with a flat white paint, and if the image is not bright enough, then move to a gain style.
Film, LCD or 3 chip DLP would not have a problem with a silver or glass beaded gain screen. In fact best results could be achieved this way.
For the sharpest image use a DVD player that has the Progressive Scan feature. The difference to the quality of the wide shots is not subtle.
Here is a picture of a cinema that I custom built a speaker system for, Dispite its looks it is only 10 years old
Attachments
Cameron,
Only about 5% of the population is subject to the rainbow effect, some more severe than others. Aren't you lucky to be in the 95th percentile. A faster spinning color wheel is your best bet and is more effective than changes in the screen.
I agree that highly directive speakers are ideal. That's good reason for going OB with the arrays, for the limited off axis response.
Noidster,
Putting the arrays up on stage may not work if the stage is very high. You want to have the heads of all the listeners within the plane of the arrays.
Only about 5% of the population is subject to the rainbow effect, some more severe than others. Aren't you lucky to be in the 95th percentile. A faster spinning color wheel is your best bet and is more effective than changes in the screen.
I agree that highly directive speakers are ideal. That's good reason for going OB with the arrays, for the limited off axis response.
Noidster,
Putting the arrays up on stage may not work if the stage is very high. You want to have the heads of all the listeners within the plane of the arrays.
I was under the impression that the figure for rainbow in 4 segment colorwheels was closer to 50 percent, with the faster versions reducing that to 10 percent.
12 months ago I negotiated the purchase of a high end cineo 3 projector for non film screenings (high speed 6 segment higher frequency DLP projector) for a 36 ft screen/ 450 seat cinema. I have only seen rainbow once! in one shot, in one movie)
The cinema up the road bought a 4 segment one which was replaced within 6 weeks due to the huge number of customer complaints about the strange image and rainbow colors! That cinema does feature a gain screen.
I guess its funny that only 5 percent of the market could complain so much, that a company was forced to spend $10,000 on a replacement so soon. Especially as like most cinemas, 35mm film provides over 95% of the screens content!
Where did you get the 5% figure? I think you will find that it is incorrect, It does not match what is being said in video projector reviews on the web. ie optima is a rainbow maker? ect or is it that the same 5% of the population only that go to cinemas and post on the internet?
Anyhow at home my 2 metre gray screen has removed the amount of rainbow from obvious to insignificant. Next stage is to put up a 6 meter wide screen in the back yard (2nd hand cinema screen matt white, sitting in the garage) for the outdoor cinema experience over the rest of sydneys hot summer.
As for arrays I don't have any objection, I think they can sound good, they tend to spead the sound and create a defused effect, I just thought that it would be cheaper and the dialogue would be cleaner the traditional Altec way.
Anyway enough of my woffle, Good luck with the project and enjoy the big screen experience, I'm sure it will be great and the community will really appreciate the effort.
12 months ago I negotiated the purchase of a high end cineo 3 projector for non film screenings (high speed 6 segment higher frequency DLP projector) for a 36 ft screen/ 450 seat cinema. I have only seen rainbow once! in one shot, in one movie)
The cinema up the road bought a 4 segment one which was replaced within 6 weeks due to the huge number of customer complaints about the strange image and rainbow colors! That cinema does feature a gain screen.
I guess its funny that only 5 percent of the market could complain so much, that a company was forced to spend $10,000 on a replacement so soon. Especially as like most cinemas, 35mm film provides over 95% of the screens content!
Where did you get the 5% figure? I think you will find that it is incorrect, It does not match what is being said in video projector reviews on the web. ie optima is a rainbow maker? ect or is it that the same 5% of the population only that go to cinemas and post on the internet?
Anyhow at home my 2 metre gray screen has removed the amount of rainbow from obvious to insignificant. Next stage is to put up a 6 meter wide screen in the back yard (2nd hand cinema screen matt white, sitting in the garage) for the outdoor cinema experience over the rest of sydneys hot summer.
As for arrays I don't have any objection, I think they can sound good, they tend to spead the sound and create a defused effect, I just thought that it would be cheaper and the dialogue would be cleaner the traditional Altec way.
Anyway enough of my woffle, Good luck with the project and enjoy the big screen experience, I'm sure it will be great and the community will really appreciate the effort.
I got that from research about 2 years ago, when most were only 4 segment 2x speed wheels. I sold almost 100 DLP projectors down here and only one customer needed to switch to LCD. The rainbows were too bothersome for his wife. I've only seen the effect a couple of times when dark scenes are lit up by bright explosions. Nobody in my family nor any of my friends are subject to it. That makes you and one other person that I know of, out of hundreds.
ProjectorCentral now just says a "small percentage", but one result of a quick Google search did mention "small but very vocal percentage", so you guys are outspoken.
ProjectorCentral now just says a "small percentage", but one result of a quick Google search did mention "small but very vocal percentage", so you guys are outspoken.
John
I think I see a pattern with gain screens, total darkness and high levels of rainbow, as for the projectionists that have had to deal with it , I have only met 1 who has not seen it! and 20 who have! I would say that if used in a classroom enviroment and powerpoint presentations I would not see it.
Ps, you have seen it!
Thankyou I enjoy hearing your point of view.
Pss, If you guys are interested I can take some photos of the rig that Im building for the back yard, the Speakers are finished, just starting with the screen frame ect
I think I see a pattern with gain screens, total darkness and high levels of rainbow, as for the projectionists that have had to deal with it , I have only met 1 who has not seen it! and 20 who have! I would say that if used in a classroom enviroment and powerpoint presentations I would not see it.
Ps, you have seen it!
Thankyou I enjoy hearing your point of view.
Pss, If you guys are interested I can take some photos of the rig that Im building for the back yard, the Speakers are finished, just starting with the screen frame ect
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