http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/verity_sarastro.htm
"Where these two titans differed most was in the area most crucial to me -- the midrange. While the laser-cut ceramic midrange driver in the Kharma speakers provides images with pin-point accuracy, great focus and startling detail, the Sarastros’ midrange was harmonically richer and, to my ears, more tonally accurate. Thankfully, this harmonic purity isn’t delivered at the cost of resolution. Over the years I have noticed that ceramic midrange drivers like the one used in my Kharma speakers can ring at certain levels, leading to listening fatigue at loud volumes or over extended sessions. However, this never occurred with the Sarastros. On the vast majority of the 60-70 CDs I used to compare the two speakers, I preferred the silkier and richer midrange of the Sarastro. Voices, strings, and brass instruments all had a huskier, earthier, more organic presentation through the Verity speakers that gave music an immediacy that was both enticing and compelling."
Note that the mid ceramic he is referring to is NOT the same as the new neo motor ceramic driver. THAT driver should have considerably less "ringing" due to the two circular dampeners in its diaphram.
"Where these two titans differed most was in the area most crucial to me -- the midrange. While the laser-cut ceramic midrange driver in the Kharma speakers provides images with pin-point accuracy, great focus and startling detail, the Sarastros’ midrange was harmonically richer and, to my ears, more tonally accurate. Thankfully, this harmonic purity isn’t delivered at the cost of resolution. Over the years I have noticed that ceramic midrange drivers like the one used in my Kharma speakers can ring at certain levels, leading to listening fatigue at loud volumes or over extended sessions. However, this never occurred with the Sarastros. On the vast majority of the 60-70 CDs I used to compare the two speakers, I preferred the silkier and richer midrange of the Sarastro. Voices, strings, and brass instruments all had a huskier, earthier, more organic presentation through the Verity speakers that gave music an immediacy that was both enticing and compelling."
Note that the mid ceramic he is referring to is NOT the same as the new neo motor ceramic driver. THAT driver should have considerably less "ringing" due to the two circular dampeners in its diaphram.
The Audio Technology drivers are cheaper than that new Accuton though... You can also choose the parameters of the Audio Tecnology drivers.
I notice the Accuton drivers all have a grill built in, is that because the diaphragm will brake with the slightest touch? Is it possible to remove the grill?
I notice the Accuton drivers all have a grill built in, is that because the diaphragm will brake with the slightest touch? Is it possible to remove the grill?
In the Great Project, colleague and I spent quite a while looking for the right mid. Scanspeak Revelator 2905/9900, and 25W were successful first tries, but the mid search took a long time. Not least because we were insuffficiently immaculate in crossover component choices and construction technique. However....
We spent perhaps a year messing with the Accutons. These were not the current version, but the previous one, with the asymmetrical damping pad. We were pretty well committed to using low order multislope crossovers, and we never got the Accutons to sound really clean. Other problems were some dynamics compression, and one broke for no apparent reason. We found that removing the grille helped, both audibly and measurably. On ours, it just pulled off.
Later we would have been able to get a clean sound, from what we learned, but the compression would not have been solved.
On the other hand, our first pass with the Skaaning/Audio Technology convinced us we had our mid; it took work also, being incredibly transparent, but it allowed us to fairly easily clean up our act and use best (affordable) xo components, associated equipment and construction (star ground, good connectors, and silver hookup wire come to mind). We're using the C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD, with concave dust cap, and crossing over at about 150 and 3950 Hz. It does everything; slight ringing at 3900 is the only vice. Transparent, dynamic, clean, just outstanding. It does require excellent associated components, attention to diffraction, etc. (I understand that since we bought ours, the surround may have been changed, and that there is a Kapton voice coil former available now. )
I've posted a fair amount about our adventures in other threads on these forums. I hope the information there is useful.
We spent perhaps a year messing with the Accutons. These were not the current version, but the previous one, with the asymmetrical damping pad. We were pretty well committed to using low order multislope crossovers, and we never got the Accutons to sound really clean. Other problems were some dynamics compression, and one broke for no apparent reason. We found that removing the grille helped, both audibly and measurably. On ours, it just pulled off.
Later we would have been able to get a clean sound, from what we learned, but the compression would not have been solved.
On the other hand, our first pass with the Skaaning/Audio Technology convinced us we had our mid; it took work also, being incredibly transparent, but it allowed us to fairly easily clean up our act and use best (affordable) xo components, associated equipment and construction (star ground, good connectors, and silver hookup wire come to mind). We're using the C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD, with concave dust cap, and crossing over at about 150 and 3950 Hz. It does everything; slight ringing at 3900 is the only vice. Transparent, dynamic, clean, just outstanding. It does require excellent associated components, attention to diffraction, etc. (I understand that since we bought ours, the surround may have been changed, and that there is a Kapton voice coil former available now. )
I've posted a fair amount about our adventures in other threads on these forums. I hope the information there is useful.
What was the idea behind the concave dust-cap? Was it by special request or was it just how they did the older ones?
I ask because I just enquired about the possibility of building a driver with an 'inverted' dust-cap for one of my projects.
May I see some pictures of your drive unit? If you have one from just above the side so I can see the profile of the cone and dust-cap that would be really good
I ask because I just enquired about the possibility of building a driver with an 'inverted' dust-cap for one of my projects.
May I see some pictures of your drive unit? If you have one from just above the side so I can see the profile of the cone and dust-cap that would be really good
Thanks Zaph,
It is pretty timely you are testing one of those woofers!
I have been considering the possibility of having a unit like this built with a 77mm voice coil so that a tweeter (thinking the SS 3004/660000) can be mounted as close to the acoustic centre of the driver as possible; Per thinks removing the dust cap completely will mess up the response above 800Hz. With the face plate removed from the tweeter it is only 70mm wide, which enables a 2nd order Xover at about 1.5KHz.
I would have to buy one of the woofers and tweeter and try it out to see the effects of the waveguide loading from the cone, but as you have one of those woofers sitting there at the moment…. is there any chance you could mount a similar tweeter in this way and take some measurements?
I realise it is not going to act as a perfect waveguide, but I just need an idea of how much work will be needed to pull it off. Mostly I am not sure of the effects of the gap between tweeter body and cone, since most waveguides mount directly around the dome, not the body of the tweeter.
The throat mounting method is supposedly very important, so it may make or break the idea. If it works I think it has the possibility to be the ultimate coaxial midrange/tweeter.
If you have the time to do a quick experiment like this I would really, really appreciate it!
Thanks
It is pretty timely you are testing one of those woofers!
I have been considering the possibility of having a unit like this built with a 77mm voice coil so that a tweeter (thinking the SS 3004/660000) can be mounted as close to the acoustic centre of the driver as possible; Per thinks removing the dust cap completely will mess up the response above 800Hz. With the face plate removed from the tweeter it is only 70mm wide, which enables a 2nd order Xover at about 1.5KHz.
I would have to buy one of the woofers and tweeter and try it out to see the effects of the waveguide loading from the cone, but as you have one of those woofers sitting there at the moment…. is there any chance you could mount a similar tweeter in this way and take some measurements?
I realise it is not going to act as a perfect waveguide, but I just need an idea of how much work will be needed to pull it off. Mostly I am not sure of the effects of the gap between tweeter body and cone, since most waveguides mount directly around the dome, not the body of the tweeter.
The throat mounting method is supposedly very important, so it may make or break the idea. If it works I think it has the possibility to be the ultimate coaxial midrange/tweeter.
If you have the time to do a quick experiment like this I would really, really appreciate it!
Thanks
Zaph said:
Well, let me ask the guy who borrowed them to me if he minds if I cut the dustcaps off his $500 woofers. I'll get back to you on that.
No no...
I should have been clearer sorry. I mean, since the dust cap is inverted, a tweeter can be mounted significantly closer to the woofers acoustic centre than with a woofer where the dust cap is an outward dome, and hopefully without the negative effects of completely removing the cap. It would still leave a gap at the sides between cone and tweeter though, so I wonder how much effect that has on the effectively waveguide loaded response of the tweeter - since the throat is meant to be a critical area.Quite how to mount the tweeter in this position for a temporary measurement I've no idea! I guess it is something I will just have to try for myself...
Will be very interested to see the measurements for the AT woofer anyway
Sorry, missed part of the question. Trying to fiddle with the picture without Photoshop Elements, and not doing very well was distracting.
We bought our trial pair as part of a group buy; and did not specify the dust cap. When we bought our 2nd pair, Pers remembered that the first pair had the concave cap, and asked if we wanted the 2nd the same. Since we were thoroughly happy with the first pair....
I'm not sure, but I think the reason the freq resp on ours shows a bit less of a high end rise than the C-Quenze graph shown, and is more like the Flex-Unit curve, is because of the concave caps. We cross over, as I mentioned, at 3900 Hz or so, and I sure wouldn't get in the way of a driver that can do that. It's also worth noting that the cone travel is considerable.
We bought our trial pair as part of a group buy; and did not specify the dust cap. When we bought our 2nd pair, Pers remembered that the first pair had the concave cap, and asked if we wanted the 2nd the same. Since we were thoroughly happy with the first pair....
I'm not sure, but I think the reason the freq resp on ours shows a bit less of a high end rise than the C-Quenze graph shown, and is more like the Flex-Unit curve, is because of the concave caps. We cross over, as I mentioned, at 3900 Hz or so, and I sure wouldn't get in the way of a driver that can do that. It's also worth noting that the cone travel is considerable.
Here is another interesting subjective comment about the newer accuton midrange in a VERY expensive Kharma loudspeaker:
"Linnman meanwhile confided to a lack of interest in listening to his own system. As a result of many experiments in gear substitutions, his had recently devolved. Taking the pulse confirmed the matter. His three-way Kharma Exquisite Midi References were all metal, no wood. Unconscionably expensive, their vaunted ceramic midrange seemed to be the culprit. Linnman's Orpheus Lab source, Wavac preamp and Zanden 9500 monos clearly were innocent. Perhaps not fully broken in yet -- this is a relatively recent upgrade for Linnman -- the speaker at present exhibited an annoying lack of tone plus bite in the upper midrange that telegraphed particularly two octaves above middle C on piano and female vocals."
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioexotics/audioexotics_5.html
"Linnman meanwhile confided to a lack of interest in listening to his own system. As a result of many experiments in gear substitutions, his had recently devolved. Taking the pulse confirmed the matter. His three-way Kharma Exquisite Midi References were all metal, no wood. Unconscionably expensive, their vaunted ceramic midrange seemed to be the culprit. Linnman's Orpheus Lab source, Wavac preamp and Zanden 9500 monos clearly were innocent. Perhaps not fully broken in yet -- this is a relatively recent upgrade for Linnman -- the speaker at present exhibited an annoying lack of tone plus bite in the upper midrange that telegraphed particularly two octaves above middle C on piano and female vocals."
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioexotics/audioexotics_5.html
When I recieved my first set of Audio technology woofers which I had ordered from Ejvind personally (he was minding the shop while Per was away on holiday), I listend to the drivers free air and then put them in the box that had been designed specifically for them. I immediately called Per Skanning up, and thanked him for making the first woofer I had ever heard, that actually worked.
Sadly, the rest of the woofers and mid-basses out there, have signifigant flaws, or the balance of flaws are ..off. Meaning that the tradeoff of distortions vs extension vs clarity vs dynamics..are off.
Years and years of design have taught Ejvind and Per to get it exactly right. There are no free rides, and no free lunches. And anyone who tries to tell you that 'theirs is better' or (I've heard this one far too often) 'that design system is ancient and old news'...has no idea what the hell they are talking about.
It's an easy thing to ignore, when you go on your little audio journey of discovery, and you try out every woofer under the sun. As you learn more and more and more about sound reproduction, then you finally arrive at Audio Technology, buying Skanning woofers.
If you want to get past all that wasted time, then just buy them and be done with it. Or you can waste many a year trying all the others out. It's a subtle thing, like the old time blues player outclassing the screamy 'too many notes' young perofrmer, with his few but perfectly placed and played notes. Less is more.
This is 'loudspeaker design lore', the pure skill of nuance, subtlety, and perfection--learned over many years. I knew what I was looking at, the moment I set hands and eyes on one single Audio technology woofer. All the signs are there, if you know what to look for. It's right in front of people, and yet they don't see it. Beautiful. perfect. Like the Pyramids at Giza, the wonder of it is there, if you have the eyes to see it. This is the 'loudspeaker driver' version of that. There is TON of technology and understanding hiding in those woofers, IF you know what you are looking at. They are deceptively simple looking.
Audio Technology: When you get ot the top, these drivers are the only ones that actually WORK.
Sadly, the rest of the woofers and mid-basses out there, have signifigant flaws, or the balance of flaws are ..off. Meaning that the tradeoff of distortions vs extension vs clarity vs dynamics..are off.
Years and years of design have taught Ejvind and Per to get it exactly right. There are no free rides, and no free lunches. And anyone who tries to tell you that 'theirs is better' or (I've heard this one far too often) 'that design system is ancient and old news'...has no idea what the hell they are talking about.
It's an easy thing to ignore, when you go on your little audio journey of discovery, and you try out every woofer under the sun. As you learn more and more and more about sound reproduction, then you finally arrive at Audio Technology, buying Skanning woofers.
If you want to get past all that wasted time, then just buy them and be done with it. Or you can waste many a year trying all the others out. It's a subtle thing, like the old time blues player outclassing the screamy 'too many notes' young perofrmer, with his few but perfectly placed and played notes. Less is more.
This is 'loudspeaker design lore', the pure skill of nuance, subtlety, and perfection--learned over many years. I knew what I was looking at, the moment I set hands and eyes on one single Audio technology woofer. All the signs are there, if you know what to look for. It's right in front of people, and yet they don't see it. Beautiful. perfect. Like the Pyramids at Giza, the wonder of it is there, if you have the eyes to see it. This is the 'loudspeaker driver' version of that. There is TON of technology and understanding hiding in those woofers, IF you know what you are looking at. They are deceptively simple looking.
Audio Technology: When you get ot the top, these drivers are the only ones that actually WORK.
KBK said:
That's quite the verbage you've written there. I have to say I'm not impressed however. It's the old objectivity vs subjectivity thing. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but an actual set of distortion measurements is worth more than any amount of Stereophile-esque prose you can come up with.
When the BS gets too deep, it's time to put on the hip waders.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
hey, lay it on thick. why not. Lotsa cream too.
oh yeah, if she sounds bad, it don't matter what the measurements say. If she sounds good, it don't matter what the measurements say.
When the ear and brain, both working good, disagree with the measurements, then the measurement is wrong. The base premise of the measurement, is likely wrong. To each thing, the proper amount of salt, but.. at the same time, never disbelive your ear. The measurement's weighting, or principle of design or implementation... may be wrong.
It may be incorrect and flat out wrong to say that people design by ear over measurements are wrong,and the same for designing strictly by measurement. balance in each. Those who have tried existing by one method as a sole point, the vast majority of those companies are (IMHO) justifyably dead.
What I'm saying, is I'm backing off, and giving space for fair ground and even attitude. I'm hoping that you are not measurement linnies. In my book, that's the worst kind! There's no room for that at all in audio. 
This is about musical enjoyment, not measurements. And we certainly don't have a full measuremnt handle on what the ear hears yet. The correleation is far from complete.
And, I'll kick your hip wader laden butt with the statement that the prose is what it's all about. It's a human enterprise, first and foremost. Engineers...be fully damned.
oh yeah, if she sounds bad, it don't matter what the measurements say. If she sounds good, it don't matter what the measurements say.
When the ear and brain, both working good, disagree with the measurements, then the measurement is wrong. The base premise of the measurement, is likely wrong. To each thing, the proper amount of salt, but.. at the same time, never disbelive your ear. The measurement's weighting, or principle of design or implementation... may be wrong.
It may be incorrect and flat out wrong to say that people design by ear over measurements are wrong,and the same for designing strictly by measurement. balance in each. Those who have tried existing by one method as a sole point, the vast majority of those companies are (IMHO) justifyably dead.
What I'm saying, is I'm backing off, and giving space for fair ground and even attitude. I'm hoping that you are not measurement linnies. In my book, that's the worst kind!
There's no room for that at all in audio. This is about musical enjoyment, not measurements. And we certainly don't have a full measuremnt handle on what the ear hears yet. The correleation is far from complete.And, I'll kick your hip wader laden butt with the statement that the prose is what it's all about. It's a human enterprise, first and foremost. Engineers...be fully damned.
Just goes to show that it's not just the magazine reviewers or big-ticket/high priced speaker owners who can wax lyrical prose about their beloved gear.
The DIYers can do it too. <sigh>
Without the engineers with their hundreds of years of accumulated theory, theory and practical experience of designing and building electro-mechanicals systems, where would audiophool be?
Anyway, I can't wait to see your new suite of measurements John. Keep up the great work. I've learn more about speakers in the past 3 years than I have ever imagined.
The other day I had a gentleman come into where I work, and wanted to buy off-the-shelf 2-way crossover, to wire up to his Focal mid/woofer. He didn't want to use a tweeter, so at first I was confused as to why he's want to use our 2-way crossover. But after he explained it to me, it was clear. Since this was a "mid-woofer, with two sets of terminals" (most likely dual voice coil) he wanted to use use a 2-way crossover to use be able to listen to the mids, not the bass. The midrange "was one of the best" [he'd] ever heard"
This is what happens when you turn off your brain and follow the "just listen with your ears" approach
HELLOOO!
The senses are fallible, and easily deceived.
Seriously Philosophy units should be a PRE-REQUISITE in high-school...
But hey, this was just a "in-between" project mind you, to tie him over whilst his new thousand dollar speakers were being custom made. The new speakers would have Raven ribbon tweeters, PHL midranges, dual Eton drivers.
I didn't bother to ask him about measurement equipment or crossover design. Why would you need those? I mean,
PHWOAH!
The DIYers can do it too. <sigh>
Without the engineers with their hundreds of years of accumulated theory, theory and practical experience of designing and building electro-mechanicals systems, where would audiophool be?
Anyway, I can't wait to see your new suite of measurements John. Keep up the great work. I've learn more about speakers in the past 3 years than I have ever imagined.
The other day I had a gentleman come into where I work, and wanted to buy off-the-shelf 2-way crossover, to wire up to his Focal mid/woofer. He didn't want to use a tweeter, so at first I was confused as to why he's want to use our 2-way crossover. But after he explained it to me, it was clear. Since this was a "mid-woofer, with two sets of terminals" (most likely dual voice coil) he wanted to use use a 2-way crossover to use be able to listen to the mids, not the bass. The midrange "was one of the best" [he'd] ever heard"
This is what happens when you turn off your brain and follow the "just listen with your ears" approach
HELLOOO!
The senses are fallible, and easily deceived.
Seriously Philosophy units should be a PRE-REQUISITE in high-school...
But hey, this was just a "in-between" project mind you, to tie him over whilst his new thousand dollar speakers were being custom made. The new speakers would have Raven ribbon tweeters, PHL midranges, dual Eton drivers.
I didn't bother to ask him about measurement equipment or crossover design. Why would you need those? I mean,
PHWOAH!
mebe if you coat dat dere ceramic cone wit a bit ah poly, it might sound ok.
But seriously, it's all about the fact that the human ear and brain, as a measurement system, are not evenly wieghted in any parameter, and have a specific set of criteria of how they work. This is why the linear (read:standard) design and weighted measurment systems do not correlate as well as we'd like them to - to what the ear hears. The ear ends up being more accurate,as we have to sift through the measurments for what we hear....about 10-20% of what we measure, correlate and call distortion, etc, is directly capable of being tied to waht the ear hears. But, the ear is looking at that 10-15-20% alone, and to it, that area of the signal is 100% of what is going on.
The measurement system is at fault, as the logic applied to it's design is a fault. Thus, the design criterea of given driver or system....may come to be at fault. It's simple straightforward logic.
Some are better at it than others. When I've been spending time of loudspeaker development, my senes and connectivity to the brain gets so sharp, I can tell what slope of corossover is in use, before entering a given room at an audio show. I can hear it from outside the room. easily. Like breathing. Many times, I can tell what brand of amplifier is in use, before entering the room. (a given unit may be popular at that show, and be in multiple rooms-oh god, not crap amplifier x again!). I can tell wether the speaker in the room is bass reflex, or if it is using ceramic/hybrid drivers, or paper or poly cones.
All this, from outside the room. Before entering. Now....tell me I'm lying. I work with a gentleman, who can, for example, pick up any woofer, and tell you the resonance Hz, with one or two cone taps. He's never wrong by more than 3 hz. I know a guy who can build woofers out scrap parts, and then have two seemingly diferent woofers..sound the same.
Do not judge others or other's capacites by how you personally exist, I will very much do the same for you. I never said you were (dear reader, not just thread contributors), and this is not a case of me pouting and trying to pet my ego, by assulting yours. no-no. I'm just saying.
I'm saying Skanning knows how to create balance in a driver. Excellent balance. In my opinon, the best balance out there.
But seriously, it's all about the fact that the human ear and brain, as a measurement system, are not evenly wieghted in any parameter, and have a specific set of criteria of how they work. This is why the linear (read:standard) design and weighted measurment systems do not correlate as well as we'd like them to - to what the ear hears. The ear ends up being more accurate,as we have to sift through the measurments for what we hear....about 10-20% of what we measure, correlate and call distortion, etc, is directly capable of being tied to waht the ear hears. But, the ear is looking at that 10-15-20% alone, and to it, that area of the signal is 100% of what is going on.
The measurement system is at fault, as the logic applied to it's design is a fault. Thus, the design criterea of given driver or system....may come to be at fault. It's simple straightforward logic.
Some are better at it than others. When I've been spending time of loudspeaker development, my senes and connectivity to the brain gets so sharp, I can tell what slope of corossover is in use, before entering a given room at an audio show. I can hear it from outside the room. easily. Like breathing. Many times, I can tell what brand of amplifier is in use, before entering the room. (a given unit may be popular at that show, and be in multiple rooms-oh god, not crap amplifier x again!). I can tell wether the speaker in the room is bass reflex, or if it is using ceramic/hybrid drivers, or paper or poly cones.
All this, from outside the room. Before entering. Now....tell me I'm lying. I work with a gentleman, who can, for example, pick up any woofer, and tell you the resonance Hz, with one or two cone taps. He's never wrong by more than 3 hz. I know a guy who can build woofers out scrap parts, and then have two seemingly diferent woofers..sound the same.
Do not judge others or other's capacites by how you personally exist, I will very much do the same for you. I never said you were (dear reader, not just thread contributors), and this is not a case of me pouting and trying to pet my ego, by assulting yours. no-no. I'm just saying.
I'm saying Skanning knows how to create balance in a driver. Excellent balance. In my opinon, the best balance out there.
OK le'ts settle that out for GOOD NOW
ZAPH :
i'll buy a pair of Skaaning mids
and send them both to u so you can do distortion measurements to compare with the others you have on your site
( then u send them back to me ok ? ,
even if they beat everything else! i want them back after )
tell me how to contact you
i'll try and order them ASAP
ZAPH :
i'll buy a pair of Skaaning mids
and send them both to u so you can do distortion measurements to compare with the others you have on your site
( then u send them back to me ok ?
,even if they beat everything else! i want them back after
)tell me how to contact you
i'll try and order them ASAP
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