Hello all,
My first post here as I start into the world of DIY audio. I'm an experinced amateur woodworker and audiophool. For my first trick I'd like to perform the building of some titan II's (I believe that is what Bruce is selling as kits). I've visited Volvotreter's page quite often and the pictures of his build have answered many of my questions regarding the mid-bass cabinets.
Where I'm not sure of how to proceed is with the upper baffle that contains the mid compression driver and tweeter. Or if a baffle is needed at all. I've seen some horn implementations that just use small mounting structures for these, but I'm not sure which approach is the best.
For those who have built edgarhorns in the past, did you find it necessary to go through prototype stages?
Thanks,
Dan
My first post here as I start into the world of DIY audio. I'm an experinced amateur woodworker and audiophool. For my first trick I'd like to perform the building of some titan II's (I believe that is what Bruce is selling as kits). I've visited Volvotreter's page quite often and the pictures of his build have answered many of my questions regarding the mid-bass cabinets.
Where I'm not sure of how to proceed is with the upper baffle that contains the mid compression driver and tweeter. Or if a baffle is needed at all. I've seen some horn implementations that just use small mounting structures for these, but I'm not sure which approach is the best.
For those who have built edgarhorns in the past, did you find it necessary to go through prototype stages?
Thanks,
Dan
See my free style implementation from Edgarhorns:
http://www.hi-fi.ro/fhifi/viewtopic.php?t=5278&start=120
For mids and hi's I use CD horn and bullet tweeter in free air, small baffle for tweeter and a fixing frame.
In the future I intend to change the bullet type supertweeter with a slot type tweeter (like Selenium ST324-322) or a compression tweeter (like Beyma CP25) to pair the orizontal dispersion of the rest.
http://www.hi-fi.ro/fhifi/viewtopic.php?t=5278&start=120
For mids and hi's I use CD horn and bullet tweeter in free air, small baffle for tweeter and a fixing frame.
In the future I intend to change the bullet type supertweeter with a slot type tweeter (like Selenium ST324-322) or a compression tweeter (like Beyma CP25) to pair the orizontal dispersion of the rest.
I don't have any plans. I'm pretty much buying the 80Hz horn from Bruce Edgar to use for the midbass. I'll have to work out the frame and cabinet once the horn gets here. I have a good idea of what it needs to be and how to brace it internally but the details will have to wait.
I think there may be some plans online somewhere for something like the Klipsch horns.
I think there may be some plans online somewhere for something like the Klipsch horns.
Hi Dan,
Indeed, I have done seriuos work dampening midbas horns.
First, my clones are downsized from the original 50Hz to more maneageable 70Hz ones (1:1.4 scaled) but use almost the same width for material. Second, the interior surface of driver backroom is completely painted with bitum (from an auto-paint shop) and filled with damping fabrics (watelline). Third, about 6kg of Dynamat type treatment was done on the most exposed to vibration surfaces (driver's visiting panel, horn mouth, very high presure throath, etc.).
End the effect was great: more clear sound and some eficiency increase.
Hi Chipco,
You can find Bruce Edgar's "Show Horn" plans on the volvotreter site (download section).
Indeed, I have done seriuos work dampening midbas horns.
First, my clones are downsized from the original 50Hz to more maneageable 70Hz ones (1:1.4 scaled) but use almost the same width for material. Second, the interior surface of driver backroom is completely painted with bitum (from an auto-paint shop) and filled with damping fabrics (watelline). Third, about 6kg of Dynamat type treatment was done on the most exposed to vibration surfaces (driver's visiting panel, horn mouth, very high presure throath, etc.).
End the effect was great: more clear sound and some eficiency increase.
Hi Chipco,
You can find Bruce Edgar's "Show Horn" plans on the volvotreter site (download section).
There you go, Chipco. I took another look at Volvotreter's download pages. There are plans for the show horn, like DorinD's, and the Klipsch-based horns. I even found a plan that could help me out. His 150 Hz midbass is very similar to what I'll be doing for the 80 Hz horn. Except, I don't have to build the horn! I did consider buiding the horn but I'm not sure I would save much over what Bruce sells it for.
Thanks for the information, DorinD. I can apply that knowledge to my cabinets. Bruce mentioned also about getting at least 1" of sand around the mouth of the horn. I'm not sure how to go about doing that. I could maybe build some compartments around the perimeter, fill them with sand and close them up.
Thanks for the information, DorinD. I can apply that knowledge to my cabinets. Bruce mentioned also about getting at least 1" of sand around the mouth of the horn. I'm not sure how to go about doing that. I could maybe build some compartments around the perimeter, fill them with sand and close them up.
Well, I'm off to a good start. My order has been placed with Bruce Edgar for the 80Hz and 350Hz horns. Bruce also pointed out a seller on ebay that has new oem evm 15b woofers which are what he recommends for the 80Hz. Now I just have to wait until the horns arrive. I hope they get here before the Christmas rush! The purchase of the mid-range compression driver and tweeter will also wait until I have the midbass horn cabinet together. No sense cluttering the shop.
Hi DorinD are your midbass scaled from the "Show Horn"? how do they perform? Here's my 100hz m=0.55 shells built by Bruce about 15 years ago tested outdoors with JBL 2220H and a K43 clone. I think mass rolloff and HF peak show. Freddy
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5964/be100k43vs2220xj6.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9453/be100onoffpj5.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5964/be100k43vs2220xj6.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9453/be100onoffpj5.jpg
Hi DorinD -- are your midbass scaled from the "Show Horn"? how do they perform? Here's my 100hz m=0.55 shells built by Bruce about 15 years ago tested outdoors with JBL 2220H and a K43 clone ( 4 ohm Klipsch driver) I think mass rolloff and HF peak show. Freddy
btw - mouth on this shell is ~20.5" by 20.5" and path about same (~20-20.5) to 8" x 10" throat-plate
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5964/be100k43vs2220xj6.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9453/be100onoffpj5.jpg
I'm always looking for Karlson-coupler builders to see how smooth results they can obtain. Have you seen any new coupler attempts?
btw - mouth on this shell is ~20.5" by 20.5" and path about same (~20-20.5) to 8" x 10" throat-plate
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5964/be100k43vs2220xj6.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9453/be100onoffpj5.jpg
I'm always looking for Karlson-coupler builders to see how smooth results they can obtain. Have you seen any new coupler attempts?
Hi Rob,
Yes, there has been a few discussions regarding which driver to use in the 80Hz horn. I did confirm with Bruce that he was talking about the B model and not the L. This was via email so I did not get a chance to question him further. The B is the bass guitar driver and I assume that he uses it to boost the low end frequency response. He may also be basing this on what is currently available. In any case, I decided to stick closely with his recommendation for this first build. If I find out more I will post it.
Best,
Dan
Yes, there has been a few discussions regarding which driver to use in the 80Hz horn. I did confirm with Bruce that he was talking about the B model and not the L. This was via email so I did not get a chance to question him further. The B is the bass guitar driver and I assume that he uses it to boost the low end frequency response. He may also be basing this on what is currently available. In any case, I decided to stick closely with his recommendation for this first build. If I find out more I will post it.
Best,
Dan
The 15B does indeed sound better than the 15L in Bruce's 80Hz horn. Not only does it give better heft at the low end, but it rolls off sooner at the top end. The latter, I think, is even more critical, as it seems to integrate much better with the midrange horn. I switched the 15L to a 15B, and both male and female voices became cleaner. Less "doubling" on the voices. I think the 15L was probably OK with prior folded horns, which tend to roll off faster. But with a straight horn, the lower roll off of the 15B integrates better. It's not even close. Use the 15B for the straight horn.
@freddi
Yes, my ShowHorns are scaled down with 1.4 to better fit in my room. Under 70Hz I'm using a strait TL of 2.5 meters long.
Instead of a 12inch driver I use a 10inch one with 2*Fs/Qe above 400Hz (PAudio E10-200A). Basshorns are crossed to mids @360Hz/12dB (Selenium HM4750 CD type horn).
I have no measurement of them but my ears detect some fuzzyness in 300-500Hz area, but not so bad at all. My sistem is 4-way active and have some posibilities to correct this (independent crosspoints and slopes).
Anyway, the basshorns have some peacky output till 700-800Hz. They go down nicely and sound full putted in the corners even with no sub-bass. Mr. Edgar did a nice design and the single major concern building them is proper damping.
Yes, my ShowHorns are scaled down with 1.4 to better fit in my room. Under 70Hz I'm using a strait TL of 2.5 meters long.
Instead of a 12inch driver I use a 10inch one with 2*Fs/Qe above 400Hz (PAudio E10-200A). Basshorns are crossed to mids @360Hz/12dB (Selenium HM4750 CD type horn).
I have no measurement of them but my ears detect some fuzzyness in 300-500Hz area, but not so bad at all. My sistem is 4-way active and have some posibilities to correct this (independent crosspoints and slopes).
Anyway, the basshorns have some peacky output till 700-800Hz. They go down nicely and sound full putted in the corners even with no sub-bass. Mr. Edgar did a nice design and the single major concern building them is proper damping.
Thanks for the great info, Pooge! I'll sleep better now knowing that someone has already done the L to B comparison and liked the way the B integrated better. Do you know what the approximate xover points are?
I am kicking around the sand vs. minimal expanding foam fill. Bruce had suggested trying to get at least 1" of sand around the mouth of the horn. At first I was unsure as to what this would do. However, after researching some more I learned of the bell mode effect. Bruce posted that this is the main source of vibration and resonance with horns. They will ring at the frequency that corresponds to the wavelength that can be wrapped around the mouth. Now that I know what the issue is I can try to design the cabinet bracing with this in mind.
I'm currently thinking of using all 3 methods, sand, foam and plywood bracing. The plywood bracing is a no-brainer. Filling the entire cavity with sand will result in something approaching 150 lbs or more, but may end up being the easiest solution to put in practice. The option I'm currently studying is building some compartments around the backside of the mouth that can be filled with sand and then sealed up. The rest of the void could then be filled with the minimal expanding foam.
I am kicking around the sand vs. minimal expanding foam fill. Bruce had suggested trying to get at least 1" of sand around the mouth of the horn. At first I was unsure as to what this would do. However, after researching some more I learned of the bell mode effect. Bruce posted that this is the main source of vibration and resonance with horns. They will ring at the frequency that corresponds to the wavelength that can be wrapped around the mouth. Now that I know what the issue is I can try to design the cabinet bracing with this in mind.
I'm currently thinking of using all 3 methods, sand, foam and plywood bracing. The plywood bracing is a no-brainer. Filling the entire cavity with sand will result in something approaching 150 lbs or more, but may end up being the easiest solution to put in practice. The option I'm currently studying is building some compartments around the backside of the mouth that can be filled with sand and then sealed up. The rest of the void could then be filled with the minimal expanding foam.
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