Veneering methods

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
I know this is heresey to those who really get into fine veneer work, but you can buy rather nicely done pre-veneered sheets of MDF from a high quality plywood supplier... they typically have a range of good to work with and look at woods: cherry, maple, oak, luan (faux mahogany), and others here in the USA.

It can save you a lot of work doing the parts that are flat and square. You can still do fancy inlays and the face of ur cabinet by hand...

_-_-bear

PS. fwiw, Watco Danish Oil is very nice, for medium gloss I like WaterLox, and for high gloss I like WaterLox "Gym Finish"... no urethane varnishes for moi! ;)

The pro finishers around here seem to air spray lacquers...

oh yeah, oh yeah... I almost forgot!

I got really tired of glue(s) finding its way out seams and onto finished sides, so I started to apply the finish colorant/stain (if one is used) and/or a light coat of danish oil finish before I applied the veneer! Of course this slows up the process as the stuff you apply has to a) not penetrate all the way through and b) dry before you go to glue stage. But it has kept me from having annoying spots or edges (if not trimmed edges) that lack color! It's probably not quite the right way to go for all sorts of resons, but it has worked and the veneers are still stuck where I put them last time I looked... and no spots that won't take color or finish.
 
Veneering -- cont

Time to continue the animal, scotch or protein glue method of laying veneers to, solid timber or most man made (modified) wood based products.
Due to the high cost of some (real wood) veneers, eg - Indian Rosewood, Satinwood, Brown Oak, Bog Oak, Ebony, Walnut Burrs, Andaman Padauk etc, particularly when you have purchased only enough matching leaves from the same flitch to complete your project, work of art, latest creation, the last thing you dont want to occur is to have a disaster in lining up and laying up your carefully selected expensive veneers only to find you have somehow laid a leaf or leaves to a side the wrong face up or verticaly incorrect. RUDE WORDS AND HAIR PULLING HERE.
A stuff-up here with other glues means having to re-purchase a complete matching new set of veneers, the chances of finding a couple of near matches is to say the least very remote !!!!!!! .
If animal glue has been used to lay up your veneers it can be removed and repositioned or reversed, dont worry about all the glue on what is now the face. HOW, DO WHAT, simply slowly reheat and moisten with water the offending leaf/leaves and GENTLY lift them, support lifted areas on thin strips of acrylic, polyproplene etc, (non porous to glue) .
When the veneer has been successfully lifted re-glue and lay up as previously described, keep surface of veneer damp, and CLEAN base of iron regularly with warm water, or you will glue the IRON to the VENEER, HEHEHEHEHE, I,ve done it so I can laugh, DO NOT TRY TO PULL THE IRON OFF THE VENEER, (I haven't found any market yet for veneered iron bases LOL) Let the iron cool, then slowly, while the veneer is still damp, prise the iron off the veneer. A good single malt whiskey with no ice, water or any other contaminate, taken internally helps enormously here, giggle burp.
Trim all excees, overhanging veneer while it is still damp, with a razor sharp chisel or Exacto type knife blade. and remove excess edge glue with warm water and a cotton cloth, Do NOT saturate the veneer, wipe off with a dry cloth, then set aside to dry over night.

Time for bed, nice weather here today 32C and its still 19C and its gone 11PM ---mmmmmmm nice .
Regards.
Gary.
 
Hi Gary,

I've been reading your post with tremendous interest. I'm wondering where I would find protein glue here (in SA), all the older local DIYers know of it, but I cannot seem to source any of it. Hmmm... would this be a common thing in use today or do some enthusiasts keep it for nostalgic reasons?

You just gotta love the weather in the Southern Hemisphere!:D Had a heat wave two weeks ago (38C up north) and I think this summers' gonna be a stinger!! Only thing keeping me cool is copious amounts of Millers :drink::drink:

Cheers

Gert
 
Whiskey-doped speaker cabinets

The ready veneered MDF i know of too, used it for bathroom furniture. Laquered with clear boat varnisch. Only the MDF quality is not of the best (pressure-quality)

The surplus veneer i work off with a very sharp hobby knife, and a small handy "David" chisel. The blade of it is rasor thin / sharp. Couldn't find a picture on www. Beware of wood lining, it is better not to cut in direction with the veneer lines going into the material.

The paper-backed veneer works more easy, but always shows a small bright line of the paper on the edge of case, when darker woods are used.

This danisch oil, is it easy available / expensive?
Is the finish just as water / moist resistant as laquered wood?

(btw have a whiskey here in this very moment too, nice not only when i am veneering)

And yes those whiskey doped speakers exists!
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/top/cat/article/0,,2076_310069581_310815579,00.html
 
Veneering -- cont

Hello GBYLEVELDT,
Ihope the posts have been helpfull for you and others.
Scotch, animal or protein glue as it known in various parts of the world is still produced in U.K, Europe too, my supplies come from New Zealand.
Many antique restorers still use it for veneer and carcase repairs to furniture, also musical instrument makers/repairers use it to make/repair violins, guitars, doublebass and viola, but I believe many refer to it as Russian glue, a more refined, paler and stronger form of animal glue. So dont give up it is still out there, if stored properly in non-metal airtight containers it has a shelf life of many years, however if it goes off by becomeing damp it dont half pong, phooooo dead dog smell. It is also one of the cheapest glues I know of, freight may cost you more if you have to source it from overseas, than the kilo cost of the glue !!!!

When you have to place leaves of veneer side by side to make up width, or when crossbanding etc use gummed paper tape along the seams and also damp the upper side of the tape then pat dry and leave on till the veneered sides have set. The tape can be removed by damping the tape and then carefully pulling off a couple minutes later, keep the tape damp until you have removed all you are able, then let the veneer and tape residue dry for an hour, any remaining tape should be removed with a cabinet scraper, do not try to machine sand it off.
The tape is the lick and stick type, usually a brown paper tape. This too is precoated with animal glue, hence its rather distinct flavour, HEHEHEHE, YUCK PHOO, so use a damp sponge, and resist the temption to run it over yer tongue, or you will have a great paper cut on your tongue and blood all over your precious veneer. Blood stains can be removed with oxalic acid, but make sure you go over both cabinets with the same batch of oxalic acid ( it will slightly bleach the veneer, so do not spot treat any stains in the veneer. WARNING --- Oxalic acid is poisonous in the wet or dry state. When it dries it leaves a white powdery residue behind, DO NOT blow it off or even dust it off, wash it off with cool water and pat the surface dry TWICE. If you inhale the dust and suffer from asthma or any other allergic respiratory problems this Oxalic Acid dust will give you a most severe attack, so be very carefull, I use a toxic chemical respiraror to avoid any probs with it, use vinyl gloves also. Oxalic Acid is derived from rhubarb leaves, so dont even smoke them leaves if you have run outa baccy for yer ciggies or pipe.
Many countries still use lick and stick postage stamps = protein, animal, pearl or scotch glue.

OH YES never ever cover your batch of made up glue, place it in a clean area of your work area and allow it to dry out till you next need it, or it will surely go putrid - VERY PUTRID. When you need the glue for the next project cover with a small amount of COLD water and slowly bring to a gentle simmer, stir in more water as requied.

Next post will cover -- Blisters and lifted edges and how to correct them, remember this glue is REVERSABLE. The ONLY glue that is.
 
I think, not sure, that the glue you are speaking of is called "Hide Glue" in the USA.... as in horse's hides. Used by furniture makers in the past and has the nice attribute of being "un-glueable" once put together, but seems to stay together otherwise.

---> Still haven't heard how those nice odd angles in the face of the burled maple were trimmed in/miter'd without ~~~~~~~ wiggles?

That is of sincere interest to me... <----!!

Secret hint for finding copious amounts of high quality veneers - find a shop that does nothing but veneering. Their trash heap is like nirvana. Of course you can't always get big pieces, but they'll usually throw you some nice things that are good but not perfectly up to their standards. The one around here is hidden in the woods and does work for showrooms in NYC, even though we are 120 miles away... their junk is better than what I see in the "woodworking supply" places.

In the USA, there is Constantines (iirc) in the Bronx NY that has wonderful supplies for woodworking and veneers + exotic woods.

_-_-bear :Pawprint:
 
How can you get very nice mirrored veneer, how do you cut it? Before glueing? I tried this few times, and allways get very fine not perfect aligned spots somwhere in the mirror line. It has to be filled up then with someting, and is in my eyes not superb.
 
The Danish Oil finish is not a solid coating like a lacquer or varnish.
It sits mostly in the wood, some slightly on the wood.

Depending on the wood and what you want to do you can hit it with a cover coat to "seal it" fully. After it is dry. Meaning quite a few days in a warm and dry situation.

In the USA it is sold commercially in many places since MinWax bought the company that bought the company that bought the company, etc...

The Waterlox stuff is a high quality "polymerized Tung Oil" type finish... it is rather compatable with the Danish Oil stuff, so it can be applied over it even when not fully dry. In effect the "polymerized" Tung Oil finish is a type of varnish. There are different methods to making the stuff, and I found the Waterlox brand stuff to be tuff, resilient and easy to fix, if it has a problem.

It will however, "yellow" slightly with age. Which is kinda nice, imho, since it imparts a very nice overall look after a few years.

Doesn't shift as much as shellac by any means.

It is pretty good with water - thus the name Waterlox. Dunno about alchohol, haven't personally tried it, and haven't read the can in a while... should be ok. Shellac, not.

I have seen a DIY Danish Oil finish dried, multiple coats, lightly polished, and then followed with a hard Carnuba Wax, buffed by machine. This was on Brazillian Rosewood. Astounding!! Real bling-bling glossy look.

I did cabinets of cherry veneer, hit with mildly colored Watco oil, followed by multiple coats of Waterlox Gym... sand between coats. all applied by hand, using a soft flannel type lintless cloth btw. Smooth, hard, not too glossy, beautiful orangy glow to the cherry, (mostly from the color in the Watco) very good on the eyes. And, they are easy to touch up should something scratch that finish. Which is the main reason I use it.

Oh, the Waterlox will take any solvent compatable colorant. I've used small amounts of MinWax stains for example (the ones without the heavy solids) in the Waterlox to provide a slight color tint - like yellow over maple - like an old Telecaster neck looks... you can probably throw in an analine dye directly (the high-end wood finishing supply companies sell stuff like that).

I also used it to do the entire Gibson Explorer that I restored from a derelict. Same thinking. I've redone the back of the neck at least twice now... just a light sand (very fine) and several new coats... done, like new. Invisible to even close inspection.

Of course, ymmv - and these are only my preferences.

For a super high gloss finish it's hard to beat sprayed lacquers...
but I try to stay away from super high gloss, because that shows all the imperfections perfectly... any wavyness, or defects, scratches...

_-_-bear :Pawprint:
 
Hi Bear,

Had been working today, is also necessary. ;)

About those angles and stuff:

The baffles of those speakers are solid MDF, in my case 100mm thick.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Then I just cut the corners off with a hand saw and a steady hand. First, I used aluminium profiles to guide the saw, but that was a disaster, as the saw kept "biting" the aluminium.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


After cutting off, the facets were covered with a thin layer of MDF (3mm)

Make sure to apply even pressure to guarantee a flat facet surface:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


et voilà

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Regarding veneering this shape: I first veneered the rear side of the cabs, then the sides, then the top, and then the baffles. These faces were all done with paper backed veneer.
The cabinet then looks like this:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


The issue you have with those angles, is that the paper backing will show very prominently when the facets would be covered by paper-backed veneer. This phenomenon can slightly be noticed on this picture:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


So to make sure that the paper backing doesn't show on the facets, I veneerd the facets with normal veneer. This way, all angled edges with paper backing are covered with real veneer that, when trimmed, doesn't show paper backing since there isn't any. :D

Trimming is easy with a very sharp stanley knife (with the blade that you can break 10 pieces off when the tip goes blunt) I especially bought a good one that has a metal grip and a screw lock to totally lock the blade. As mentioned before be very aware of the grain of the wood, especially with real veneers. The grain must always point away from the edge in cutting direction, otherwise your knife disappears in your workpiece. With birds-eye maple this is quite a demanding requirement, since the grain goes all over the place. Also when cutting through a bird's eye that lies exactly on the edge you must be really carefull otherwise you'll rip the eye out and leave a dent on the edge.

Best is done in multiple stages, leaving a small overhang of 0,5-1mm than can be trimmed off really finely resting one edge of the knive (actually using it like a chisel) on the surface and just peeling that last bit off. Then a bit of medium fine sanding paper on a block of MDF (not on a neoprene sanding sole, way too flexible!!!) to level off the edge.
 
For a super high gloss finish it's hard to beat sprayed lacquers...
but I try to stay away from super high gloss, because that shows all the imperfections perfectly... any wavyness, or defects, scratches...

I agree. I prefer satin laquer.

My routine lately has been:

- Final sand with 400 grit sandpaper.
- Apply Watco natural danish oil, let it soak for 10-15 minutes.
- Apply another coat and wet sand with 400 grit wet/dry paper. It removes any raised wood fibers and makes for a very smooth finish. I usually do about 3 coats.
- Remove any excess oil, let dry for 2-3 days.
- Spray several light coats of Deft satin laquer. About 5-6 coats. Let it fully dry. Yes, you can spray laquers over Watco - as long as it's fully cured.
- Lightly rub out the entire finish with #0000 steel wool. It leaves a nice natural looking silky smooth finish to your project. The Watco danish oil (or any other type of oil for that matter) brings out the grain better than spraying a laquer alone. The laquer adds a nice satin sheen to the finish.

-Ken
 
fgroen,

Wow!

Just so you know, those sorts of free hand cuts can not be done in this part of the world... won't work. Must work only in your locale. Something about quantum physics, gravitational/space anomalies and other oddities make those cuts always go places that you do not want them to go at all. Guaranteed. Certain.

You are brave. :D

_-_-bear
 
bear said:
fgroen,

Wow!

Just so you know, those sorts of free hand cuts can not be done in this part of the world... won't work. Must work only in your locale. Something about quantum physics, gravitational/space anomalies and other oddities make those cuts always go places that you do not want them to go at all. Guaranteed. Certain.

You are brave. :D

_-_-bear


Thanks. :cool:

The first cut was the hardest (for some reason some song comes up in my head when I write this...) after that the rest was just plain exercise. My right arm was quite sore after all cuts were done. :bawling:

Just joking . :D

Anyhow, I think that having the right tools is a more plausible explanation than the quantum physics of an ocean. :dodgy:

I used a "fat max" handsaw of Stanley tools. The teeth are cut in quite a particular way, which makes that the saw is quite easy to control. Normally the teeth of a saw are slightly bent alternatingly left and right ("set" we say here). This makes the saw quite restless and wanting to go all over the place.
The setting of the fat max saw is done by the way the teeth are shaped. This makes that the saw is really straight, and that not only the points of the teeth do the cutting, but the whole sides of the teeth.
Here's an image, although not mega clear:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Also the saw was brand new, so really sharp. You must not undertake something like this with even a slightly blunt saw. That would be a waste of effort.

If you want to, I can post a close-up of the teeth later. :D
 
Veneering -- cont

Hello again to all folowing this post,
Short on time this week -( Marking assessments for the apprentices I teach at Tech)- so I will describe a method to produce neat edges that do not get easily damaged.
Lay your veneers using your prefered glue, then using a CUTTING GAUGE, (similar to a marking gauge but it has a blade not a pointed pin) cut a small rebate on the edges of your cabinet, box or enclosure, remove the waste and into this rebate glue in solid strips of timber, thay only need to about 1/8" square 2.5mm or a size to suit your own taste, contrasting timber could be used to good effect. Most people thesa days have access to or own routers that will do the job more quickly, but with more noise pollution. I listen to music while I work so I prefer Ludite methods and twin armstrong technology LOL.
When the glue is dry plane off excess with a small block plane, or sand till flush with veneer, small mitres can be cut easily for the returns with a very sharp chisel. Proper term for this process is STRINGING.
If you are using anima glue, do NOT attempt to use a power router to cut the rebate until the glue is quite dry, however the cutting gauge CAN be used while the glue is still damp.
Hold stringing in place with gummed paper tape, the tape shrinks as it dries and holds stringing very securely.
Have a sticky week HEHEHEHE,
Regards,
Gary.
 
Hi Oldfart.

This week i saw in an German magazine, Hobby Hifi, such a solution, the cabinet edges on the front had a massive wood inlay with an angle for better sound radiation. Looked very good in special when contrasting colours are used. The front was black stained MDF, you could distinguis the MDF fibre. Side was beach wood veneer, and massive beach inlay on corners. There was a small rivet (called like that?) between each transition, very nice
Its a Visaton Topas "plus" with modded magnetostatic tweeter:

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/topas_plus.htm

No close up in www available.
 
STRINGING, I've seen it and often wondered why it was there. In most cases I've seen, they do it as a decorative twist.

Keep it coming old fart, my wife wants me to build her a coffee table that uses several different veneers to create a pattern. I see a lot of trial and error, but this information is helping to open my mind and avoid lots of error.
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.