After screwing around with these for half a decade, I think there are a lot more variables than just the mass rolloff and the distance from the throat to the midrange. (See my post from two or three weeks ago for more info.)
And due to all those variables, I believe that when you use a larger horn angle, you need to lower the xover point from midrange to tweeter.
Or to put this simply, if you intend to use a horn with an angle that's greater than 50 degrees, you'll have to reduce the crossover point to compensate for that.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But these uber tiny drivers raise the tantalizing idea of a real 'home theater' Unity horn, a unity horn which uses a plain ol' tweeter at the apex. If you can get the midranges to play up to 2khz you can cross over to an ordinary dome or ring radiator tweeter, and reduce the size of the enclosure dramatically.
Here's a quick size and cost comparison, just off the top of my head:
A 'real' Unity horn uses a compression driver (about $100), and four 12cm midranges (about $125).
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Once you factor in the crossover, you're looking at about $1500 for five channels, and a HUGE amount of real estate in your listening room.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If you opt for 5cm drivers, you can get away with a dome or ring radiator ($40) and four 5cm drivers ($8). Factor in the xover, and you're looking at about $500 for five channels, and a footprint that's not much bigger than the bookshelf speakers you'd get at Best Buy. (xover cost is lower because a direct radiator's xover is simpler than a compression driver.)
Another cool thing about the 2" drivers is that you can still get unity summation. For instance, Bill Waslo was able to get the 5cm drivers to play down to 350hz. So that gives you a huge leeway for the bass driver; as long as the distance from the horn to the bass driver is within 24cm, it will be within one quarter wavelength at the xover point.
So a configuration like the picture above, which has a modest waveguide and relatively small woofer, would be completely 'do-able.' The main difference in the sound would be improved frequency on and off-axis, higher power handling, higher efficiency, plus that incredible articulation that I like so much with Unity horns.
I have a stereo set of the diy Synergies (dubbed the "coSynes") running now. Still playing with the voicing a little, and waiting for some of the shredded denim damping material to arrive via UPS.
DIY Synergy/Unity spreadsheet
Sound is quite good, very clear and solid sounding, sounds very much like a single driver but of very wide bandwidth and high SPL handling. Imaging isn't quite as sharp as with the SEOS waveguide/TD15M speakers I've been using, but those are biamped and EQ'd all to hell, so not a fair test yet. Four of the little Aura NS6 drivers in each horn does remarkably well with bass, much better than anticipated. Of course they are in a huge (for them) ported cabinet, but still.
No complaints at all about the little 2" cheapie drivers, they work quite well for this and allow me to use the Celestion CDX1-1445 as the tweeter CD. Very nice tweeter, good smooth response to >20kHz, low cost. But has to cross over higher than the usual DE250 types.
DIY Synergy/Unity spreadsheet
Sound is quite good, very clear and solid sounding, sounds very much like a single driver but of very wide bandwidth and high SPL handling. Imaging isn't quite as sharp as with the SEOS waveguide/TD15M speakers I've been using, but those are biamped and EQ'd all to hell, so not a fair test yet. Four of the little Aura NS6 drivers in each horn does remarkably well with bass, much better than anticipated. Of course they are in a huge (for them) ported cabinet, but still.
No complaints at all about the little 2" cheapie drivers, they work quite well for this and allow me to use the Celestion CDX1-1445 as the tweeter CD. Very nice tweeter, good smooth response to >20kHz, low cost. But has to cross over higher than the usual DE250 types.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Is this the speaker you're referencing?
I have a pair of Summas, which are a fairly similar design, and I think the roundover on the cabinet contributes to the imaging in a big way. My Summas don't 'sound' as big as they look. Might be something to try on either speaker.
A few weeks ago I posted the message above, where I argue that the upper limits of the midranges in a Unity horn aren't just dictated by mass rolloff. There are some factors we're ignoring, particularly nulls which occur due to the distance from side-to-side and top-to-bottom. Hornresp can't model this, because it 'thinks' they're all one unit.
Based on this argument, I think that the easiest way to extend the high frequency response of the midranges in a Unity or Synergy horn is to use very small drivers.
Bill Waslo has had good results with the $2 5cm drivers from Parts Express.
I have had good results with the $25 5cm drivers from Tang Band, as well as the $20 5cm drivers from Peerless.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If you want to take my idea to the logical extreme, have I got a driver for you
This driver has some interesting advantages over what Bill and I used:
#1 - It's a sealed back driver. You don't have to futz around with sealing off the basket.
#2 - The FS is in the right range. It's 520hz.
#3 - The size is even better than what Bill and I used. It's not a 5cm driver it's a 2cm driver (!)
#4 - The price is right. My drivers were $25 each, this one is $3
I think this might be the driver that would finally let us do a Synergy horn with a dome tweeter at the apex, along with a horn angle that's not so narrow.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
DIY Synergy horn test - YouTube
A member of another forum managed to do a Synergy with a dome tweeter, and it has a lot of that 'unity horn magic.' (Listen to it over headphones, then compare it to the videos on Danley's Facebook page.)
I think the reason that this driver is so promising is that you need to get the midrange driver to play very *high* if you want to mate up with a dome tweeter. Plus, you want to use a wall angle that's wider than what you'd use for a compression driver, because a dome tweeter is better behaved on waveguides with a wide wall angle versus a narrow one. (Check out the measurements on Zaph's site; you can see this with his tests. I think it's also the reason that JBL/Mackie/Genelec use wide angle waveguides with dome tweeters.)
And when you make that wall angle wider, you need to raise the xover point, and this tiny little driver makes that possible.
Soooo...
Do I have to build one of these or will someone else give it a try first
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Any thoughts about the smallest of tangband extended range speakers?
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-921-parts-express-specifications.pdf
Tang Band W0-2008S 1" Neodymium Full Range Driver Pair 264-921
No problem geting it close to the cd with a diameter of 18.4mm.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-921-parts-express-specifications.pdf
Tang Band W0-2008S 1" Neodymium Full Range Driver Pair 264-921
No problem geting it close to the cd with a diameter of 18.4mm.
I folded a Unity horn into a Paraline. This has some neat benefits, such as a very small footprint, and it's much easier to build than a conventional horn. (Built mine in less than two hours.)
Video and pics here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
Video and pics here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
Been way too busy for audio, but just wanted to let you guys know I found an interesting 4" sealed back mid-range. If somebody has the time, look into it and see what it will take to get some. Please share what you find out so everyone can benefit from it. Back to the salt mine now...
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Or you can just contact me for the 4" sealed back Celestion drivers. Might as well use the best
Shipping from down under to the states will be too costly. Not to mention customs will also rape you on duty taxes.
May I volunteer ??
Hello Antripodean and JLH :
May I volunteer ?? I am less busy than JLH.
I suggest we all keep an open mind and investigate BOTH the Celestion and Visiton four inch sealed back drivers, and use the best suited ones !! One brand may be far better than the other, depending if its a two way Synergy horn, or, a three way Synergy horn design. Right !!??
It seems like Viston sells world-wide through dealers on different continents, and usually handles "technical questions" direct in Germany.
Since there presently seems to be a world-wide interest in a DIY Synergy Horn project, and it will likely be on-going, having a world -wide sales network and driver availability may be both cost effective and positive. Each end-user will likely have to buy eight drivers for a pair of stereo horns.
I think its good to speak with " one voice for all " to Visiton, and I volunteer. I am sending an email, and will telephone them on Monday.
Allow me to speak to the USA sales reps initially. We will figure out cost structures and the most suitable way, to make available, first to JLH and potentially to the ENTIRE Synergy DIY group (on an on-going basis), these Visiton four inch drivers.
Lets leave it to JLH and Antripodean to give us the DIY design and driver selections that work the best. They are well-qualified to do this engineering.
I am happy to help, and will openly post results in a timely basis, for all DIYer's information and benefit. If there are any additional topics I should determine from Visiton, please post me up here.
Thanks to all.
Jeffrey Medwin, Warrensburg, MO
Hello Antripodean and JLH :
May I volunteer ?? I am less busy than JLH.
I suggest we all keep an open mind and investigate BOTH the Celestion and Visiton four inch sealed back drivers, and use the best suited ones !! One brand may be far better than the other, depending if its a two way Synergy horn, or, a three way Synergy horn design. Right !!??
It seems like Viston sells world-wide through dealers on different continents, and usually handles "technical questions" direct in Germany.
Since there presently seems to be a world-wide interest in a DIY Synergy Horn project, and it will likely be on-going, having a world -wide sales network and driver availability may be both cost effective and positive. Each end-user will likely have to buy eight drivers for a pair of stereo horns.
I think its good to speak with " one voice for all " to Visiton, and I volunteer. I am sending an email, and will telephone them on Monday.
Allow me to speak to the USA sales reps initially. We will figure out cost structures and the most suitable way, to make available, first to JLH and potentially to the ENTIRE Synergy DIY group (on an on-going basis), these Visiton four inch drivers.
Lets leave it to JLH and Antripodean to give us the DIY design and driver selections that work the best. They are well-qualified to do this engineering.
I am happy to help, and will openly post results in a timely basis, for all DIYer's information and benefit. If there are any additional topics I should determine from Visiton, please post me up here.
Thanks to all.
Jeffrey Medwin, Warrensburg, MO
Its not that difficult. Just plug the driver parameters into hornresp. Do a conical horn with offset driver. Adjust the corresponding parameters until satisfied with result. Driver has to be relatively small with strong motor, basically every 4-6 inch PA midrange should be workable, as you will have to eq it anyway a little bit. With two midrange drivers, you can go up to about 8 inch. Doesnt have to be closed back either, if the horn is two way.
I was running the Misco in my car for a couple days, and the surround came off. It's been in the 90s lately, and I'm guessing that the heat made the surround seperate from the cone.
The Misco *sounds* a lot louder than the Pyle, but my hunch is that it's mostly because the Misco cone is untreated, so it's high frequencies are louder.
Long story short - the Pyle works pretty darn good. If I had to do it over again I'd probably stick with it instead of buying both the Misco and the Pyle. And if I was the owner of a set of Lambda Unity horns, I'd take a look at the surrounds to be sure that they're intact.
I've heard the original Unity with misco drivers and Pyle PDMR5, albeit in different systems. If there are differences in sound it isn't obvious. They might appear in a close side by side comparison, but there's nothing I could point out right now. The real difference is in build quality. The Pyle is quite obviously cheap. The Celestion that Roger mentions is much better built and I've found that to be true with all their drivers I've used. With the Pyle, the terminals feel like they are about to break off when you bend them, so you have to be careful and gentle, using pointy nose pliers being careful not to apply any pressure to the join. The surrounds are half roll foam which is unfortunate for long term stability and not a good choice for a midrange driver, where an accordion surround better controls cone breakup. So I would say if you want a good one to experiment with, go Pyle. Misco is a better one for long term use. Better still would be the Celestion which has what I consider to be the ideal mix.
Visaton M 10 4" midrange
I was just quoted a price of $21 per driver, on a single driver basis. The USA Visaton dealer is checking on what constitutes a box, and what quantity discount structures would be. Stay tuned, and I will post as more information is obtained.
If anyone has a better idea on how to go about this, please PM me. One good thing, there are Visaton distributors world-wide.
Jeff Medwin
I was just quoted a price of $21 per driver, on a single driver basis. The USA Visaton dealer is checking on what constitutes a box, and what quantity discount structures would be. Stay tuned, and I will post as more information is obtained.
If anyone has a better idea on how to go about this, please PM me. One good thing, there are Visaton distributors world-wide.
Jeff Medwin