Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn. - Page 70 - diyAudio
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Old 26th March 2013, 11:25 PM   #691
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Well i think the crucial thing is to find a suitable woofer... Integrating the tweeter for PA use won't be to hard. The midrange driver will be able of 127 dB crossed at 500 hz . Sounds good.

My pockets are empty for the moment so i hope i will to use only 2 woofers/horn.

Bdw!!!
Aprox...how big is this monster? :-S in Yorkville speakers, the horns looks like an 300hz horn, and i assume that the woofers work to less than that(100hz?).

Synergy horn seems to be the best of the pack.
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Old 31st March 2013, 05:47 AM   #692
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did not want to start another thread to ask this question, does anybody have a cut away view of the jericho series speakers. I am mostly curious how the many drivers are combined/mounted inside....mostly just curious.

If ths is not disclosed or public info, than please ignore my request. I am puzzled by the designs.

Steve Garrett
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Old 31st March 2013, 07:07 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by HIPCHECK View Post
did not want to start another thread to ask this question, does anybody have a cut away view of the jericho series speakers. I am mostly curious how the many drivers are combined/mounted inside....mostly just curious.

If ths is not disclosed or public info, than please ignore my request. I am puzzled by the designs.

Steve Garrett
The layered combiner in the Jericho and the Paraline in the Genesis horns work in a similar way. Basically the devices constrain the output of the compression driver into a path that's so small, the wavefront can't form.

In the Paraline the output from the compression drive is 're-assembled' into a ribbon shaped wavefront; in the layered combiner it's 're-assembled' into a square.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
^^^ layered combiner ^^^

Click the image to open in full size.
^^^ Paraline ^^^


Each device has it's upsides and downsides:

1) Unless I'm missing something, the path in the layered combiner is not optimum. The path in the Paraline, by comparison's sake, is pretty close to radial expansion. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it appears that getting the pathlength right was more important than having the optimum expansion rate.
2) Danley's published some papers critical of line arrays; this may be the reason that the Paraline speakers are sold by VTC and Yorkville
3) There's some serious upsides to both devices. I've built a LOT of unity horns, and in my opinion, the most difficult thing to get right is getting the midrange to play above 1khz. So the layered combiner and the Paraline allow you a lot more flexibility when it comes to xover points. I have no idea what the xover point is in the Jericho horns, but I don't think it would be possible to generate these levels of output any other way. (since high frequency drivers suffer from comb filtering in such a huge way.)
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Old 1st April 2013, 03:35 AM   #694
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Hi Patrick
Yes they are similar or at least the same rules govern the operation. It may be age creeping up on me but when I had the idea for the Paraline, that solidified in a couple days to where I could draw and build one.
I had similar initial flash of the idea and told my partner I thought a saw a way to combine multiple drivers without interference. That flash went out and turned out to be a 4 month ordeal to get a workable approach and for a while I wasn’t sure it could happen.

I would offer, in the figures from the patent application, the pictures are actually distorted vertical vs horizontal. For a reference, those would have been 1.4 inch BMS coax drivers in that drawing.
A 4 driver version of that one is actually easier to picture as it has full symmetry. The object of course is to have the device radiate a curved wavefront into the horn section for frequency ranges where that exit is governing the directivity (up high). Adjusting the length of the dotted line paths changes the curve.
Also, the layered combiner in the J-3 and J-4 are simpler and much smaller due to the drivers used.
I am working on a “large” speaker too since the stadium area is a place where the sound difference is a big deal.
I think you would enjoy it, a giant Synergy horn with 64 hf compression drivers, 44, 5 inch mid drivers and 16, 12 inch horn loaded woofers in a horn with a 120 inch tall by 45 inch wide mouth. I don’t think I will be having a pair in my livingroom.
Best,
Tom
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Old 1st April 2013, 03:53 AM   #695
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Patrick is now probably wondering if he can get that mounted on his dashboard. ..
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Old 1st April 2013, 10:26 PM   #696
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Patrick is now probably wondering if he can get that mounted on his dashboard. ..
That would be nice to see!
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Old 1st April 2013, 11:54 PM   #697
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Patrick is now probably wondering if he can get that mounted on his dashboard. ..
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Of course!

Above are some pics of the CAD plans, the frequency response, and a picture of my 'stargate' project. It's basically a Paraline cut in half.

I tried a TON of solutions which were more complex than this; some really byzantine reflectors and strange folding schemes.

But in the end, simply cutting a Paraline in half worked really quite nice!

The device has these features:

1) The unequalized response covers three octaves with a window of +/- five db. Sure, you can do better than that with a waveguide. But I can fix frequency response with an EQ. And it's still pretty good.
2) More importantly, the off-axis response 'maps' the on-axis response to a high degree
3) The super skinny mouth of the horn allows for really wide vertical response. Which is really handy when the listeners are located off-axis, like in a car
4) The device is tiny. The mouth is less than a quarter of an inch tall.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 1st April 2013 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 2nd April 2013, 11:22 PM   #698
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Hi Guys
Patrick, outstanding kluging!
That is what I like to see, actually making things and figuring out how it works.
A one sided version is just fine too, the very first one I made was one sided and my inspiration was an AT&T microwave horn.
Reflectors are frequency dependent but the correction slot isn’t so Paraline #1 had the side profile of one of these;

AT&T microwave tower, Pinckard, AL | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Fwiw, it was made from layers of plywood also.

Anyway, nice sleuthing, the loop of building, measuring, learning, altering, building, measuring, learning is the REAL R&D.

Bill W., the fat lady hasn’t sung on “the issue”, I may know more in a couple weeks.
Best,
Tom
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Old 3rd April 2013, 08:11 PM   #699
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Click the image to open in full size.

Here's an interesting aspect of the Paraline and the Layered Combiner which wasn't immediately obvious to me.

In our Unity and Synergy horns, we have a hard time getting the midranges to play high enough. I would argue that it's the single most difficult aspect of the design. Look at this thread - it goes back for years. Getting the midrange right is really tricky.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could simply lower the xover point on the compression driver?

For instance, instead of trying to get the midrange to go to 1500hz, what if we dropped the xover on the compression driver to 750hz? That would solve a lot of challenges, and might make it possible to do a really simple Unity horn two-way. Eliminates an xover point, reduces the number of drivers, simplifies the xover, etc.


Well, the Paraline and the Layered Combiner make it possible. Because combining compression drivers doesn't just let you raise the output of the loudspeaker. It also allows for a lower xover point.

For instance, a home loudspeaker with TWO compression drivers per side might sound like complete and total overkill.

But consider this:

1) You can get a pair of Dayton D250Ps for under $100
2) A single D250P should be crossed over around 900hz; a pair of them in a Paraline could likely go as low as 700hz, maybe even 500hz.

The reason that this works is that the Paraline loses directivity control like any horn does, so there is a point where the two drivers in the Paraline are constructively reinforcing the other drivers output.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

We see that in the graphs above. In the top measurement, of a conventional horn, the CDX1-1425 is rolling off at a rate of 32db/octave. In the second measurement, of one of my Paralines, the same compression driver is rolling off at a rate of about nine db per octave.

What a difference, huh? I believe this is because the Paraline loses directivity around 1700hz, and then the two drivers begin to sum constructively.



It's a bit unique too, because you can't easily do this any other way. For instance, if you tried to do the same thing with a line of ribbon tweeters, you'll find the Paraline outperforms it because the ribbon tweeters have basically zero excursion. And if you try to do it with conventional dome tweeters, you'll get horrendous comb filtering because the tweeters don't have the right directivity.

Basically you want *narrow* directivity at high frequency, so the two drivers don't interfere with each other. And you want *wide* directivity at the low end of the drivers, so the two drivers reinforce each other's output.

Which is exactly what the Paraline gives us.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 08:46 PM   #700
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And with two drivers you dont need to push them as hard to play the same spl.
So a lower crossover point is possible because the distorsion goes down when the spl/driver goes down.
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