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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
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Old 25th March 2013, 04:56 PM   #681
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvrazvan View Post
These spekers will be used for party's so high output will be important. Covering 140 to 6Khz with a point source seem to be a good ideea. The Seleniums are reated at 75W and they can be crossed as low as 500hz. This gives more room to play, and a wider variety of drivers.
In the future i will try to use a 2"coaxial drivers . But they are not that cheap!
Most of my most successful projects have been 'inspired' by existing designs. In the spirit of that, a couple of ideas you might try:

1) Copy the Sound Physics Labs Runt. Compression driver is BMS 4550, about $149. That's what William Cowan did, with an xover of 900hz: Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.

There's enough info on the Runt online to make a successful copy. There's a thread on avsforum with pictures and measurements.

or...

2) Copy the VTC Paraline with the dual eights. The VTC Paraline *also* uses a BMS 4550, but there's a pair of them IIRC. (I'm not 100% sure on that comment; I believe some of the VTC boxes use a single compression driver on a Paraline.)



There are pluses and minuses to both approaches. The SPL Runt doesn't have directivity control as low as the VTC Paraline does. BUT the VTC Paraline is going to need DSP delay, due to the large distance between the midranges on the horn and the compression drivers. (There's something like 10" of horn length inside of the Paraline, and you need delay to compensate for that.)

If it were me, I'd probably go with the Paraline, and spend $99 on a minidsp to do the delay and xover duty. I prefer the Paraline mostly because the BMS compression driver doesn't have to work as hard on the Paraline because there are two of them. In the avsforum thread the owner of the SPL Runts complained that the high end was a bit harsh, and he'd EQ'd the top end to be down about 10-20dB to compensate. I've never found the BMS to be harsh, so my 'hunch' is that the use of an 8" midrange forced Danley to use a xover point that was lower than ideal for the compression driver. (900hz, according to Cowan.) And with such a low xover point, the compression driver is put through a lot of strain, and that strain exhibits itself as 'harshness' in the treble.


Or you could simply do what Art Welter did, and do the Paraline with large format compression drivers. You lose some top end, but the larger drivers will take a lot more abuse than the BMS 4550. In a prosound environment I doubt the audience will care if the last octave is AWOL
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Old 25th March 2013, 05:55 PM   #682
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
1) Copy the Sound Physics Labs Runt. Compression driver is BMS 4550, about $149.
or...
2) Copy the VTC Paraline with the dual eights. The VTC Paraline *also* uses a BMS 4550, but there's a pair of them IIRC. (I'm not 100% sure on that comment; I believe some of the VTC boxes use a single compression driver on a Paraline.)

I've never found the BMS to be harsh, so my 'hunch' is that the use of an 8" midrange forced Danley to use a xover point that was lower than ideal for the compression driver.

Or you could simply do what Art Welter did, and do the Paraline with large format compression drivers. You lose some top end, but the larger drivers will take a lot more abuse than the BMS 4550. In a prosound environment I doubt the audience will care if the last octave is AWOL
Danley designed the Yorkville TH sub, but not the top cabinets.
The Yorkville designed PSA1 uses four 8" front loaded drivers and two 1.75" diaphragm drivers, the VTC EL210 uses two 10" drivers in an offset horn (small speaker ports) and two HF drivers.
In both designs the placement of the Paraline exit is physically a bit over 1/4 wavelength from the LF driver exits or center to center distance, so off axis response in the crossover region is not optimal.

I use 8" and EV DH1AMT 3" diaphragm drivers, which avoids the problems around the acoustic crossover point.
Other than above 15K, the DH1A has more clean output potential than the pair of BMS 4550.

For home use I would not use the Paraline, the narrow vertical dispersion it affords is not required, and the sound quality of the Paraline is not as good as the usual Synergy/Unity style horn.

Using a 3" diaphragm driver in a Synergy style horn allows a lower crossover point and the use of 8" drivers, making a 3 way system (HF, MF, separate LF) viable for high volume use.
At the levels most listen at for home use, most 1" exit drivers could be crossed over to 6" or 8" cones and still sound fine and be safe.

Art
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Old 26th March 2013, 03:14 AM   #683
winslow is offline winslow  United States
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I think you are either over thinking this or don't understand these horns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
noone says you cant be creative
we havent yet seen the optimal hifi unity
btw, tweeter is not a compression driver, but a complete small tweeter horn, and could be the new FaitalPro FD371
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Old 26th March 2013, 10:16 AM   #684
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
Im only reflecting on a post where Danley said he wished his company would be interested in home audio

by that I take it he implies that the unity horn might change a bit if they were
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Old 26th March 2013, 01:08 PM   #685
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
I think what he'd change would mostly be the cosmetics. Something less industrial-looking.
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Old 26th March 2013, 01:47 PM   #686
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
well, they are very creative designers, so I think we could expect more than just a cosmetic makeover
not sure Danley is even interested in that really
sounded more like he would like to see what kind of thing his crew would create

but winslow is right
either I overthink it, or have no clew
I do that with life in general
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Old 26th March 2013, 10:25 PM   #687
rvrazvan is offline rvrazvan  Romania
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Well i think the crucial thing is to find a suitable woofer... Integrating the tweeter for PA use won't be to hard. The midrange driver will be able of 127 dB crossed at 500 hz . Sounds good.

My pockets are empty for the moment so i hope i will to use only 2 woofers/horn.

Bdw!!!
Aprox...how big is this monster? :-S in Yorkville speakers, the horns looks like an 300hz horn, and i assume that the woofers work to less than that(100hz?).

Synergy horn seems to be the best of the pack.
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Old 31st March 2013, 04:47 AM   #688
HIPCHECK is offline HIPCHECK  United States
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did not want to start another thread to ask this question, does anybody have a cut away view of the jericho series speakers. I am mostly curious how the many drivers are combined/mounted inside....mostly just curious.

If ths is not disclosed or public info, than please ignore my request. I am puzzled by the designs.

Steve Garrett
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Old 31st March 2013, 06:07 AM   #689
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPCHECK View Post
did not want to start another thread to ask this question, does anybody have a cut away view of the jericho series speakers. I am mostly curious how the many drivers are combined/mounted inside....mostly just curious.

If ths is not disclosed or public info, than please ignore my request. I am puzzled by the designs.

Steve Garrett
The layered combiner in the Jericho and the Paraline in the Genesis horns work in a similar way. Basically the devices constrain the output of the compression driver into a path that's so small, the wavefront can't form.

In the Paraline the output from the compression drive is 're-assembled' into a ribbon shaped wavefront; in the layered combiner it's 're-assembled' into a square.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
^^^ layered combiner ^^^

Click the image to open in full size.
^^^ Paraline ^^^


Each device has it's upsides and downsides:

1) Unless I'm missing something, the path in the layered combiner is not optimum. The path in the Paraline, by comparison's sake, is pretty close to radial expansion. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it appears that getting the pathlength right was more important than having the optimum expansion rate.
2) Danley's published some papers critical of line arrays; this may be the reason that the Paraline speakers are sold by VTC and Yorkville
3) There's some serious upsides to both devices. I've built a LOT of unity horns, and in my opinion, the most difficult thing to get right is getting the midrange to play above 1khz. So the layered combiner and the Paraline allow you a lot more flexibility when it comes to xover points. I have no idea what the xover point is in the Jericho horns, but I don't think it would be possible to generate these levels of output any other way. (since high frequency drivers suffer from comb filtering in such a huge way.)
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Old 1st April 2013, 02:35 AM   #690
Tom Danley is offline Tom Danley  United States
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Hi Patrick
Yes they are similar or at least the same rules govern the operation. It may be age creeping up on me but when I had the idea for the Paraline, that solidified in a couple days to where I could draw and build one.
I had similar initial flash of the idea and told my partner I thought a saw a way to combine multiple drivers without interference. That flash went out and turned out to be a 4 month ordeal to get a workable approach and for a while I wasn’t sure it could happen.

I would offer, in the figures from the patent application, the pictures are actually distorted vertical vs horizontal. For a reference, those would have been 1.4 inch BMS coax drivers in that drawing.
A 4 driver version of that one is actually easier to picture as it has full symmetry. The object of course is to have the device radiate a curved wavefront into the horn section for frequency ranges where that exit is governing the directivity (up high). Adjusting the length of the dotted line paths changes the curve.
Also, the layered combiner in the J-3 and J-4 are simpler and much smaller due to the drivers used.
I am working on a “large” speaker too since the stadium area is a place where the sound difference is a big deal.
I think you would enjoy it, a giant Synergy horn with 64 hf compression drivers, 44, 5 inch mid drivers and 16, 12 inch horn loaded woofers in a horn with a 120 inch tall by 45 inch wide mouth. I don’t think I will be having a pair in my livingroom.
Best,
Tom
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