Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn. - Page 66 - diyAudio
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Old 15th February 2013, 03:39 PM   #651
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After 648 posts you finally figured out that the port holes create a bandpass.
Now you are thinking about using a widerange driver without a compression driver in a bandpass .
Small mouth, cone driver= increased mid output, no HF gain.
As you said, rubbish.
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Old 15th February 2013, 03:52 PM   #652
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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not from reading, no sir

but not the reason
low high frequency gain, and increased mid gain would actually be perfect, I could use that ok
but any mid driver could do that...so no for that

though I might still build one, just for the fun to have one and to hear it
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Old 15th February 2013, 08:56 PM   #653
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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The problem with Synergy horns in home type listening situations is that so few people have ever actually heard them that way. I have a long thread going on over at DIYsoundgroup about a DIY synergy horn design for home use - yet, I've still never heard an actual Synergy horn! I'm just going on what I got from following patent descriptions and webposts, no idea what similarities there may really be in sound between mine and real ones. There just don't seem to be many places to hear Synergies, other than maybe in stadiums. Is there any chance of a Synergy demo/audition at some upcoming audio show (east/central area please)? They currently seem to be mythic since people only hear about them, seldom actually get to hear them.
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Old 15th February 2013, 08:59 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
The problem with Synergy horns in home type listening situations is that so few people have ever actually heard them that way. I have a long thread going on over at DIYsoundgroup about a DIY synergy horn design for home use - yet, I've still never heard an actual Synergy horn! I'm just going on what I got from following patent descriptions and webposts, no idea what similarities there may really be in sound between mine and real ones. There just don't seem to be many places to hear Synergies, other than maybe in stadiums. Is there any chance of a Synergy demo/audition at some upcoming audio show (east/central area please)? They currently seem to be mythic since people only hear about them, seldom actually get to hear them.
I had the same problem. The way that I found one was by re-constructing the old Lambda Acoustics website using The Wayback Machine, then emailing people that owned Unities.

(Patrick Bateman, Unity Horn Stalker!)

Found someone that lived 20 miles away that had a set and got a demo.
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Old 16th February 2013, 07:18 PM   #655
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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ehh... is that a small coax driver for tweeter ?

mids look like Faital 5", so...
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File Type: jpg unity horn coax.jpg (66.6 KB, 308 views)
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Old 16th February 2013, 07:47 PM   #656
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Like in one of my posts above, I want to seal the rear of the 3FE20 just like Danley sealed the rear of the BMS 5CN140 used in the SM-60F. See that attached picture. I copied the section of interest and outlined the cutaway chamber in red. It looks like getting to around 600Hz with the 3FE20 will be possible.
well, yeah, ok, it is ...and its a BMS...I think they have a new one

but the 4 small holes around the tweeter hole means the DC must be 'decoupled' from the cone with a tube or something
I dont think a coax will be needed in a unity for home use
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:48 PM   #657
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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for crossover...I was thinking about the old B&O filler-driver principle

ever considered the side mounted mids as filler drivers only ?
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:11 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
for crossover...I was thinking about the old B&O filler-driver principle

ever considered the side mounted mids as filler drivers only ?
In the DSL SM-60 pictured in posts 656 and 655 the side mounted drivers cover the low range (-10 at 52 Hz), the 5" co-ax cone covers mids, the co-ax compression driver covers the highs.

If really high SPL is not needed, a single co-ax can be used to drive a Synergy horn.

What is the "B&O filler-driver principle" ?
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:32 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I've been messing with Unity horns for close to three years now, and I've managed to purchase a pile of midrange drivers that work on Unity horns. I have the Misco drivers which I believe were used in the Lambda Unity horns, as well as a newer driver from Misco which is as good or better.

Click the image to open in full size.
Misco JC5RTF-B, KCN5FD and TB W4-1805S

One thing that we have ignored in this discussion is frequency response and distortion. The woofers in a Unity horn require a very VERY specific set of Thiele Small parameters. Basically it needs a VERY high FS, and a VERY low QES.

What you end up with is a woofer that has an extreeeeeemely light cone, and an accordian surround. If you add even a fraction of a gram to the cone or the surround, it drives down the FS too low, and then it doesn't work for a Unity horn! It's as simple as that - if the specs on the midrange are wrong, your Unity horn isn't going to work.

Click the image to open in full size.

Because the Unity mids require a cone which is astonishingly light, and an accordian surround, we end up with a woofer that looks a lot like something you'd find on an old CRT TV. Basically a giant version of one of those cone tweeters you see in speakers from the 70s.

One interesting alternative is the Tang Band W4-1805S. Tang Band makes a lot of great drivers, but only TWO of them will work on a Unity horn. The reason that all the others won't work is that their cones are too heavy, which drives down the FS too low, and the QES is too high. This particular woofer is an exception. It has the right specs for a Unity horn, AND it has an underhung motor with very low distortion. I haven't measured it's distortion yet, but it's audibly cleaner than the Misco.

(That isn't a knock on the Misco; it's a MUCH less expensive driver. Misco offers exceptional performance, and the TB gives you all that and more, for an additional cost.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Parts-Express.com:*Tang Band W4-1805S 4" Neodymium Midrange Driver | Tang Band W4-1805S 4" midrange tb speakers neodymium driver line array point source midrange home theater computer speaker center channel set tube amplifier cone mid

My collection of drivers is getting a bit ridiculous, and I intend to move into a new house in the next few months. I have posted an eBay add for my set of Misco JC5RTF-Bs. I believe it violates forum rules to post the link, but anyone can find my add easily. (Hint : it's the only set of JC5RTF-Bs on eBay, in fact it's the only set of Misco woofers on eBay.)

The lead time to have these built is a bit lengthy, and I'd be willing to bet they cost more nowadays, due to the rise in neodymium.

Long story short: get 'em while you can!

If you seal the back off on these they should work for a Unity. But you can also do some interesting things with these in a back loaded horn.
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:35 PM   #660
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
What is the "B&O filler-driver principle" ?
it was a 2way using 3 drivers
an attempt to use a too big woofer in a 2way
the third 'filler driver' would be a smaller woofer or mid

in short, its a 2way where the 2 driver are croossed a bit too early, so to speak
and the third driver is just 'filling in', at lower SPL
but it can be used in other different ways

and since its often about a bit too big woofer, and a CD/tweeter crossed a bit too low...
and furthermore, we have these big physical sizes that never seem to match...

well, that would my reasoning for the unity horn
different than original, yes...but a home, or a small instrument rig is not for a big stadium either

and regarding the tweeter, yes I believe mr geddes is right when he says troath transistion smoothness is absolutely crutial to smooth sound
so, for nice hifi-ish sound I reckon the passband unity mids should not play too loud, and only have minimal influence on the sound
hence the idea about combining it with the filler-driver principle

and thinking back again, yes the coax might actually have been perfect and doing the filler duty, and no other drivers
only problem is, it may not have the needed smooth troath transistion
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