Quote Visaton M10 8 Ohm
Here is the scivvy so far,
In the USA, e-speakers.com is the sales agent. I told them I was volunteering for this entire group, so we speak with one voice.
They tell me this 4 inch is a new speaker, and they do not stock it yet. It is currently available at a $21.10 unit price-which is retail, and takes 20 days to get, since they have no stock in the USA. They are looking into what would be quantity pricing for us, and when they find out what that is, they will contact me and I promise to promptly post up here.
I did not try to go to Visaton Germany direct. The Visaton agents on different continents may take care of individual's needs on a world-wide basis, IF we ever deem this driver advisable.
Since this driver is JLH's baby : I suspect (a) we need to get him some, (b) (IF he has the time and interest to test these), and (c) he personally feels it might be cost effective
As you may recall from his previous postings, his Miscos he bought had a problem shutting off on the top end, and he had to resort to extra parts, compensation networks, to make it behave. I assume he would weigh the implementation of the new Visaton, hopefully with no "extra" crossover parts, versus the Miscos with added crossover parts. Just a guess.
A three-way Synergy with passive crossovers should likely NOT have the same midrange driver requirement, as the very nice design Paul Spencer optimized as a two-way Synergy with active digital crossovers.
As previously stated, if anyone has suggestions on how to interact with Visaton, in a better manner than what I have initiated, please PM me !!
Thanks and regards,
Jeff Medwin
Here is the scivvy so far,
In the USA, e-speakers.com is the sales agent. I told them I was volunteering for this entire group, so we speak with one voice.
They tell me this 4 inch is a new speaker, and they do not stock it yet. It is currently available at a $21.10 unit price-which is retail, and takes 20 days to get, since they have no stock in the USA. They are looking into what would be quantity pricing for us, and when they find out what that is, they will contact me and I promise to promptly post up here.
I did not try to go to Visaton Germany direct. The Visaton agents on different continents may take care of individual's needs on a world-wide basis, IF we ever deem this driver advisable.
Since this driver is JLH's baby : I suspect (a) we need to get him some, (b) (IF he has the time and interest to test these), and (c) he personally feels it might be cost effective
As you may recall from his previous postings, his Miscos he bought had a problem shutting off on the top end, and he had to resort to extra parts, compensation networks, to make it behave. I assume he would weigh the implementation of the new Visaton, hopefully with no "extra" crossover parts, versus the Miscos with added crossover parts. Just a guess.
A three-way Synergy with passive crossovers should likely NOT have the same midrange driver requirement, as the very nice design Paul Spencer optimized as a two-way Synergy with active digital crossovers.
As previously stated, if anyone has suggestions on how to interact with Visaton, in a better manner than what I have initiated, please PM me !!
Thanks and regards,
Jeff Medwin
Visaton M 10 4" midrange
I spoke with e-speakers last week, and the proprietor told me he would "get back to me" after he THINKS about how to handle our group.
Realize, this is JLH's baby, and there is not yet a large need for group purchases of these, until JLH determines if it is worth doing. Some here, I imagine, would LOVE to build an all-JLH designed Synergy. But JLH is unusually busy at work. The first eight may need to go to JLH to measure.
If you also immediately want eight, let me know and I will include you! Or, we can coordinate and you can do as you please. Just keep me informed please, for the sake of this group.
Thanks for posting about Parts Express. Excellent. I will contact them , early this week, and report back. It would be nice for end-users, the customers, to have multiple Visaton dealers in the USA, IF we use the drivers over other choices.
More to follow, anyone can PM me if you have questions, advice to offer, etc.
Jeff Medwin
I spoke with e-speakers last week, and the proprietor told me he would "get back to me" after he THINKS about how to handle our group.
Realize, this is JLH's baby, and there is not yet a large need for group purchases of these, until JLH determines if it is worth doing. Some here, I imagine, would LOVE to build an all-JLH designed Synergy. But JLH is unusually busy at work. The first eight may need to go to JLH to measure.
If you also immediately want eight, let me know and I will include you! Or, we can coordinate and you can do as you please. Just keep me informed please, for the sake of this group.
Thanks for posting about Parts Express. Excellent. I will contact them , early this week, and report back. It would be nice for end-users, the customers, to have multiple Visaton dealers in the USA, IF we use the drivers over other choices.
More to follow, anyone can PM me if you have questions, advice to offer, etc.
Jeff Medwin
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Confirmed, Parts Exprees is a new Distributor for Visaton
Parts Express announced this on the web, on 8-24-12. See this:
Visaton, now at Parts Express!!
It looks like they have 14 Visaton listed items so far. I will call them after Labor Day holiday in behalf of this group, and will report back.
Jeff Medwin
Parts Express announced this on the web, on 8-24-12. See this:
Visaton, now at Parts Express!!
It looks like they have 14 Visaton listed items so far. I will call them after Labor Day holiday in behalf of this group, and will report back.
Jeff Medwin
Here's one I wouldn't mind testing with. Anyone have connections at Peerless?
Products - PeerlessAudio.com
Products - PeerlessAudio.com
The lowest frequency is set by the horn more so than the driver used. The local area of expansion dictates how the driver will get loaded and how low it can play.
Thanks JLH, also for the replies on the other thread, the Paraline.
I realise I don't have a full grasp of conical horn theory, I've always thought the lowest frequency performance is dictated solely by the 1/4 or 1/2 equivalent wavelength matching the mouth diameter. At least this was what I understood from Dr. Geddes papers on OS profile. Being the similarities between a purely conical horn and one that employs a conical section such as the oblate spheroid waveguides I didn't gave it too much though.
I'll read some papers on this so that I can clear it in my head and run some sims in hornresponse.
Thanks!
I realise I don't have a full grasp of conical horn theory, I've always thought the lowest frequency performance is dictated solely by the 1/4 or 1/2 equivalent wavelength matching the mouth diameter. At least this was what I understood from Dr. Geddes papers on OS profile. Being the similarities between a purely conical horn and one that employs a conical section such as the oblate spheroid waveguides I didn't gave it too much though.
I'll read some papers on this so that I can clear it in my head and run some sims in hornresponse.
Thanks!
Without reading every page of the thread, may I ask - has anybody tried a horn with only one type of driver used, besides the faux-axial of P.Bateman? e.g. a full range at the apex and identical full ranges in the walls without a crossover besides the acoustics bandpass of the slots? Can you do away with a driver at the apex if you have FRs on each wall side?
And finally, how important is symmetry in the Synergy horn? What happens if you load only one side of the horn? e.g. if one face of the horn is the baffle of an upfiring woofer and the other 3 faces are bare apart from the apex?
I've been happily listening to omni-speakers (clones of the Demokrit that Oliver at 2pi-online has helped me with) but would like to make a horn so that I can hear the difference for myself.
And finally, how important is symmetry in the Synergy horn? What happens if you load only one side of the horn? e.g. if one face of the horn is the baffle of an upfiring woofer and the other 3 faces are bare apart from the apex?
I've been happily listening to omni-speakers (clones of the Demokrit that Oliver at 2pi-online has helped me with) but would like to make a horn so that I can hear the difference for myself.
I made the same mistake for a while, which is mixing up what Geddes is focused on, which is directivity, and what all the other horn guys are focused on, which is loading. These are two completely different things. The directivity is dictated mostly by the mouth size. Loading is dictated by a number of things, but arguably the most important is length.
For instance, an oblate spheroidal waveguide that's 15" in diameter and approximately 7.5" in depth doesn't load very low, due to the shallow depth. But the directivity is consistent down to 900hz. On the other hand, you could have a front loaded horn that's 100" in depth with a mouth that's only 10" in diameter, and it will have good low frequency loading but it's directivity will not go very low. Danley talks about the latter; google "pattern flip"
https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The idea with the faux-axial was mostly to eliminate two big complex variables in the Unity horn. The faux-axial eliminates the crossover and it eliminates the phase lag that you get due to resonance of the woofer and the tweeter.
If you're going to use more than one driver in a unity horn, you'd likely want to use a tweeter, as the high frequencies get attenuated pretty quickly due to the conical expansion.
As for symmetry in a Unity horn, I think you could make an argument that using drivers on only half the walls might be superior. I get into that idea a few pages back, where I argued that our hornresp and Akabak models are missing a variable, which is the gap between the woofers in the horn. For instance, in a Unity horn like the Lambda you have a gap of about 4" from top to bottom and left to right, and I believe this gap will contribute to comb filtering that will limit your high frequency response. (And that the models don't show this.) The "easy" fix is to simply narrow the horn, and it's my hunch that's one of the reasons that Danley went from sixty degree coverage in the Sound Physics Labs designs to forty and fifty degree coverage in the DSL designs. Narrowing the walls makes it easier to run the mids higher (imho). Eliminating every other woofer has the potential to improve the high frequency rolloff of the mids, I think. Then again, it might have the complete opposite effect. Someone should experiment with this and find out
If you look at the Paraline folding, it basically takes this to the extreme; instead of a sixty by sixty conical horn like the Unity horn, the Paraline has a 360 by 0 degree coverage, and there are mids on only one wall of the horn. (the bottom.)Thanks for the info. The faux-axial is very interesting to me, since I already have some decent 3" drivers (Fountek, Vifa) and find that they are plenty loud enough for my apartment. With horn gain, I would not expect to need more volume. Maybe I should try to make a simple conical horn and see for myself. I have mics and computer EQ at hand to fix broad FR anomalies. What killed the faux-axial for you in the end? Was it an uneven spectrum?
Very interesting RE: the Unity horn symmetry. Maybe bwaslo or Paul Spencer would be willing to turn off some of the mid range units to check? With narrow coverage angles, I would expect that very few drivers are required for sufficient SPL in a home environment.
I've followed your Paraline thread with interest too. Hopefully single full range units will give me enough idea about horn sound, though. Any progress on the RS28 experiment?
Very interesting RE: the Unity horn symmetry. Maybe bwaslo or Paul Spencer would be willing to turn off some of the mid range units to check? With narrow coverage angles, I would expect that very few drivers are required for sufficient SPL in a home environment.
I've followed your Paraline thread with interest too. Hopefully single full range units will give me enough idea about horn sound, though. Any progress on the RS28 experiment?
Original Lambda Unity 60 degree with Misco 5" mids. The entry holes are smaller than the stock set up and fustrumized (for lack of a better word). Unsmoothed measurements. Red trace is one driver, green is two (opposed) and blue trace is all four. Output was adjusted to be comparable and then offset to show individual traces.
Attachments
Thanks for the plots Sheldon. Looks like 1 driver can work pretty well.
I have an idea that I want to run by you guys. First all all, keep in mind that I like listening from the floor. Chairs = work.
In a system with perfect symmetry (like the L/R symmetry of a horn) we should be able to cut it in half and get the same result. With a 100% reflective screen along the axis the virtual sources from reflections should equate to the real sources from the other side.
So I should be able to model a horn with only 2 sides, closed by the floor. Imagine a folded book standing up (angled). Add another boundary and 1 of the 4 sides of the pyramid should do.
Has anybody tested in this way? The compression driver at the throat breaks the symmetry of the mids, but still, it would be very interesting to compare with a full horn.
I imagine that the 50% horn would work for my floor use.
I have an idea that I want to run by you guys. First all all, keep in mind that I like listening from the floor. Chairs = work.
In a system with perfect symmetry (like the L/R symmetry of a horn) we should be able to cut it in half and get the same result. With a 100% reflective screen along the axis the virtual sources from reflections should equate to the real sources from the other side.
So I should be able to model a horn with only 2 sides, closed by the floor. Imagine a folded book standing up (angled). Add another boundary and 1 of the 4 sides of the pyramid should do.
Has anybody tested in this way? The compression driver at the throat breaks the symmetry of the mids, but still, it would be very interesting to compare with a full horn.
I imagine that the 50% horn would work for my floor use.
If I'm not mistaken, the 'mirroring' thing will increase output at low frequency, but as frequencies grow higher, you're still going to get the peakiness that results from a horn that's too small.
If you're trying to reduce the footprint of a horn, I've generally found that the most effective way to do that is to use a boundary to extend the output. For instance, when I put my Summas flush with a wall, the wall seems to become 'one' with the speaker. Whereas when the speaker is a foot or two from the wall, the soundstage is not as good.
If you're trying to reduce the footprint of a horn, I've generally found that the most effective way to do that is to use a boundary to extend the output. For instance, when I put my Summas flush with a wall, the wall seems to become 'one' with the speaker. Whereas when the speaker is a foot or two from the wall, the soundstage is not as good.
In principle, I think that peakiness can only sneak in as the symmetry is broken. With corner loaded woofers, the long bass wavelengths allow a lot of fudging. In an ideal world with an ideal point source placement at the corner, the gain should work at all frequencies since there is no length scale in the problem until we add one with asymmetry.
I admit that the highs might be tough to get right but it should be doable with some care at the throat. The mids should be pretty immune to sloppy termination with the boundary.
Looks like I have an experiment to perform.
EDIT: Even if I don't find a nice HF solution, I think that this kind of boundary reinforcement should be helpful for estimating mid response with 1 of the 4 sides.
I admit that the highs might be tough to get right but it should be doable with some care at the throat. The mids should be pretty immune to sloppy termination with the boundary.
Looks like I have an experiment to perform.
EDIT: Even if I don't find a nice HF solution, I think that this kind of boundary reinforcement should be helpful for estimating mid response with 1 of the 4 sides.
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About a year and a half ago I posted some pics of the original Lambda Unity, and made an (incorrect) guess as to the origin of the woofer. (I'm too lazy to look up the link right now, but it's in this thread.)
Tom corrected me, and said the woofer was from Misco. The JCRTF5-B is the only one from Misco whose parameters match, and it looks virtually identical to the Lambda Unity, so I think it's safe to assume it's the same woofer. It's possible that there were some changes made for the Lambda run, but someone would have to run their drivers through a woofer tester to be 100% sure. (IE, if the power handling was different, that would show up as a change in the QES)
Thanks for confirmation and also for the clarification on conic vs os profiles.
I am somehow going a different route for my eventual unity build.
I've noticed JLH for example is more concerned to get the midranges work higher, so that the compression driver crosses at around 1.2Khz, even higher and he is not very interested in going low with them. That's why, I guess, he is using the 3" Misco's, to better integrate them with the CD.
My goals are somehow different, I would like to get the unity work from 200-300Hz if possible.
Therefore I think I would compromise on using a 1.4" CD so that I can cross at around 800-900Hz and dsp the top end. And I would be using 5" mids to achieve that. I need start doing some ackabak sims and calculate cross-sections to see if this is going to happen. Mounting 5" mids near a 1.4" apperture might not allow me to meet the 800-900Hz crossover point I am hopping for and keep the point source behaviour.
I am somehow going a different route for my eventual unity build.
I've noticed JLH for example is more concerned to get the midranges work higher, so that the compression driver crosses at around 1.2Khz, even higher and he is not very interested in going low with them. That's why, I guess, he is using the 3" Misco's, to better integrate them with the CD.
My goals are somehow different, I would like to get the unity work from 200-300Hz if possible.
Therefore I think I would compromise on using a 1.4" CD so that I can cross at around 800-900Hz and dsp the top end. And I would be using 5" mids to achieve that. I need start doing some ackabak sims and calculate cross-sections to see if this is going to happen. Mounting 5" mids near a 1.4" apperture might not allow me to meet the 800-900Hz crossover point I am hopping for and keep the point source behaviour.