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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
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Old 30th September 2013, 03:36 PM   #1221
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrmmf View Post
The reason I'm going sealed is that I have the impression that this alignment shows better transient behavior than relflex, or am I missing something?
Thomas,

Sealed should have better transient behavior in the low crossover region than reflex (though 1/2 the speakers in a bass reflex could achieve about the same SPL ), and the Beta does look better than the Alpha in the sim.

Since it is your money, I recommend the most expensive solution .

Art
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Old 30th September 2013, 04:14 PM   #1222
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post

Since it is your money, I recommend the most expensive solution .

Art
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Old 30th September 2013, 04:24 PM   #1223
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kees52 View Post
I did a export with hornresp, but in sketchup and with use off push pull I do not get the angles right, but it do go very strange when try to push pull it making open corners and not a nice closed angle, yeahh it is difficult to explane, my technical english is not so well.

Ohh yeah, it is a test from a simulation, so don,t get to serieus about it, i did let see what I get when export through hornresp, the last flare hornresp make a error, or better, hornresp is not made to do that, I have write david about it, maybe he find it interesting to implement.

regards

kees
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

I just published a thread on how to make waveguides in Autodesk 123D design, then print them with Autodesk 123D Make.

Might be of interest to you.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...y-coffins.html
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Old 30th September 2013, 04:39 PM   #1224
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I just published a thread on how to make waveguides in Autodesk 123D design, then print them with Autodesk 123D Make.
Patrick,

What is the cost of a three-D printer capable of printing out a 28" x 28" x 22.5" horn, and what would the cost of plastic printing materials be for 3/4" thickness on the horn and enclosure?
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Old 30th September 2013, 06:23 PM   #1225
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Patrick,

What is the cost of a three-D printer capable of printing out a 28" x 28" x 22.5" horn, and what would the cost of plastic printing materials be for 3/4" thickness on the horn and enclosure?
way too much.

I just print the slices on paper, glue the slices to foam, and cut the foam on a bandsaw.

It's surprisingly fast.

I built the big foam horn pictured in that thread in less than four hours.

I don't think I would use this construction method for a simple shape. For instance, I have wood conical horns that I've built in under two hours. Where this method becomes compelling is complex shaped. For instance, a roundover at the mouth of a horn makes an audible and measurable difference. But up until now, I've used PVC to make my roundover, as does my reference monitors. (Gedlee Summas.) But adding the roundover takes time. I'd say that it adds about an hour to make the roundover.

Building a Unity horn out of foam allows for some really crazy shapes. Big fat roundovers. Assymmetrical horns. Horns with a built-in angle, similar to the old JBL Everest horns from the 80s.

Click the image to open in full size.
The JBL Everest is a good example of what I'm after. If the Everest cabinet was tilted to cross-fire the speaker, it would take twice as much floor space. But having the waveguide include a built-in angle makes the foot print quite manageable.
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Old 30th September 2013, 06:45 PM   #1226
Hrmmf is offline Hrmmf  Denmark
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Thomas,

Since it is your money, I recommend the most expensive solution .

Art
You sound just like my banker

/Thomas
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Old 1st October 2013, 09:24 AM   #1227
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Hi David


Thanks for your help with autocad, I go look there, I have download the program and play with it.

regards

kees
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Old 1st October 2013, 06:55 PM   #1228
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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I have the B&C Speakers DE120 compression drivers ordered. Parts Express is telling me they are back ordered for at least 10 days. Also ordered just one Visaton m10 to measure it and check what the air volume is under the cone. Should get the m10 sometime today. With all my modeling I not convinced that the m10 is better than the Misco RDC3T-A. The issue I see is the m10's response goes too low requiring the woofer to be mounted so far forward that you end up with a horn about the same size as a standard Danley Synergy horn. I'm shooting for something more domestically friendly. The m10 tends to want to go down to about 300Hz. The RDC3T-A only goes down to about 550Hz. When possible I like to use first order crossovers with the acoustical roll off of the driver on the horn. I really don't want to use a higher order crossover to high pass the mids, or a higher order crossover to low pass the woofers to get everything to play together nicely.
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Old 1st October 2013, 07:25 PM   #1229
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by JLH View Post
IThe issue I see is the m10's response goes too low requiring the woofer to be mounted so far forward that you end up with a horn about the same size as a standard Danley Synergy horn. I'm shooting for something more domestically friendly. The m10 tends to want to go down to about 300Hz. I really don't want to use a higher order crossover to high pass the mids, or a higher order crossover to low pass the woofers to get everything to play together nicely.
JLH,

The two way DSL SH 95 uses two 8" drivers in a 13" deep cabinet with the exits near the horn throat, and has +/- 3 dB response 200- 20kHz, -6 dB at 70 Hz, and much smoother phase response than the 22.5" deep three-way SH-50.

Why are you thinking the m10 needs to be "mounted so far forward", and why don't you want to use a higher order crossover?

Art
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Old 1st October 2013, 08:14 PM   #1230
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
JLH,

The two way DSL SH 95 uses two 8" drivers in a 13" deep cabinet with the exits near the horn throat, and has +/- 3 dB response 200- 20kHz, -6 dB at 70 Hz, and much smoother phase response than the 22.5" deep three-way SH-50.

Why are you thinking the m10 needs to be "mounted so far forward", and why don't you want to use a higher order crossover?

Art
I wasn't aware of this, so pulled the data.*

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the polars of the SH95. I did one octave pics, at 4000hz, 2000hz, 1000hz, and 500hz. I didn't include 250hz because it's omnipolar at that point; you'd need a 136cm mouth to escape that.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the same data for the Danley SH-50 Synergy Horn and the VTC EL-210 Synergy Horn (with a Paraline.) These are vertical polars for the VTC. (For the Danley it doesn't matter how it's oriented.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the frequency response and phase of the SH95

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the frequency response and phase of the SH50 (note that the phase scale is completely different than the last pic.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the frequency response and phase of the Danley SM96, which is basically the same format as the SH95. But instead of being a two-way it's a three way.


Am I mising something, or are the molded horns the most 'hifi' here?

From looking at the data, it seems like the Danley SH50 and SM96 have phase response that's superior to the SH95. I think this is because the Synergy horn is unique in the respect that adding drivers can actually improve the phase response. (This is because each driver 'hands off' to the next driver, therefore it's harder to get the phase correct with a two-way than a three way.)

But it seems like the Danley SM96 has frequency response that's a little bit better than the SH50.

If I owned a nightclub I'd probably want the SH50, but it seems like the data indicates that this is the pecking order for home audio:

Danley SM96 > Danley SH50 > Danley SH95 > VTC EL210

I think that size is a big factor for home audio, and here's the sizes for some of these horns:

Sound Physics Labs SPL-Runt Unity horn: 2.5 cubic feet
Danley Sound Labs SM-96 Synergy horn: 5.9 cubic feet
Danley Sound Labs SH-50 Synergy Horn: 11.5 cubic feet

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 1st October 2013 at 08:22 PM.
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