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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.
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Old 9th September 2010, 02:09 AM   #101
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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The big issue I've had is Celestion were complete A-holes and would not sell to us and would not provide the needed T/S parameters. Did I mention that Celestion were complete A-holes?

I really don't like the Misco JC5RTF-B much because what we need is a smaller speaker so we can get our spacing down. The closer you can get the mids to the compression driver, the easier the crossover becomes.

I thought the Misco RDC3T-A could work for us, but it has to be ordered in cases of 60 pieces and I was not willing to go alone on the cost if it did not work out. Cost is $6.44 each @ 60 pieces for a cost of $386.40 just to try it. The thing I don't know for sure about this speaker is if the horn loading will drop the Fs low enough. The higher you have to crossover to the compression driver, the harder the crossover gets because those wavelengths start to get real short above 1.5KHz.

I'm not willing to mess around with anything but sealed back mids because of the nightmare I went through trying to get open basket mids sealed and to work. No matter how careful I was, each one ended up with widely different T/S parameters.

The KM410 should work out perfectly - however a familiar problem arises again. We are having issues trying to buy the damn things. I was ready to jump on these things, but now have my doubts about FBT Audio.

Rgs, JLH
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Old 9th September 2010, 07:24 AM   #102
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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I recall some time ago there was mention in a thread that Eminence would make speakers to order in numbers which at that time did not seem too large. Is there a possibility of going that way for a group buy? I understand they can combine various stock parts and might have something that would suit.

jamikl
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Old 9th September 2010, 05:32 PM   #103
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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I spoke with Eminence about this before. They do not have anything under 6" and have no plans to add anything. They actually told me to go talk to Misco. Go figure.

Rgs, JLH
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Old 9th September 2010, 07:40 PM   #104
Marcello is offline Marcello  Netherlands
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Hello JLH,

I have some interest in the KM410 / IBEX too?

but is there some info about the Xmax.


I want to build myself some high powering unity horns.
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Old 9th September 2010, 08:56 PM   #105
MikeHunt79 is offline MikeHunt79  United Kingdom
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Would this driver be any good?

MONACOR INTERNATIONAL:New products

It's a shame that there aren't more T/S specs really, but at least there is a frequency and impedance curve.

Last edited by MikeHunt79; 9th September 2010 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 10th September 2010, 12:39 AM   #106
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcello View Post
Hello JLH,

I have some interest in the KM410 / IBEX too?

but is there some info about the Xmax.


I want to build myself some high powering unity horns.
Xmax isn't that important in a Unity/Synergy design. You have 4 drivers working well away from any bass frequencies into a single horn. At SPL levels high enough to drive you out of the room, the cones move less than 1mm.

Rgs, JLH
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Old 10th September 2010, 05:47 PM   #107
hellonwheels is offline hellonwheels
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Assuming there is some variation in the TS parameters, what are the most crucial and what would acceptable tolerences be?
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Old 11th September 2010, 07:11 PM   #108
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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First is no rubber surrounds or polypropylene cones. We want a classic pro style midrange. We want a paper cone with a treated cloth surround. We need an Fs between 400Hz and 600Hz - thus the need for a sealed back midrange. Yes, you can take an open frame midrange and seal the basket, but I refuse to screw around with that again.

As far as tolerances go, Vas, Fs, Cms and Bl need to be close from unit to unit. 10% tolerance would be good enough.
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Old 13th September 2010, 03:09 PM   #109
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLH View Post
The big issue I've had is Celestion were complete A-holes and would not sell to us and would not provide the needed T/S parameters. Did I mention that Celestion were complete A-holes?

I really don't like the Misco JC5RTF-B much because what we need is a smaller speaker so we can get our spacing down. The closer you can get the mids to the compression driver, the easier the crossover becomes.

I thought the Misco RDC3T-A could work for us, but it has to be ordered in cases of 60 pieces and I was not willing to go alone on the cost if it did not work out. Cost is $6.44 each @ 60 pieces for a cost of $386.40 just to try it. The thing I don't know for sure about this speaker is if the horn loading will drop the Fs low enough. The higher you have to crossover to the compression driver, the harder the crossover gets because those wavelengths start to get real short above 1.5KHz.

I'm not willing to mess around with anything but sealed back mids because of the nightmare I went through trying to get open basket mids sealed and to work. No matter how careful I was, each one ended up with widely different T/S parameters.

The KM410 should work out perfectly - however a familiar problem arises again. We are having issues trying to buy the damn things. I was ready to jump on these things, but now have my doubts about FBT Audio.

Rgs, JLH
I know that it looks like a toy, but the Tang Band 2" woofers that I used in three of my Unity horn projects works really nicely. The small size of the voice coil will certainly impact power handling, but it will produce plenty of output for home audio. (And I'd really discourage people from investing the time and money in this project if your goal is proaudio. Tom Danley should get your business in that event.)

Of all the woofers I've used in Unity horns, the TBs are the easiest to work with, because you can use a very high xover point due to the geometry.

Having said that, the TB is *not* the ultimate solution, just one of the easiest. TB has a few other models with higher power handling, lower distortion, and higher cost that will work. And the Faital is nice too. But all of those will bump up the price and the complexity.

Also, what's the point of using a $4 woofer on a Unity horn?

The underhung woofers sound cleaner than conventional motors. And both the TB and the Faital are underhung.

Is saving $50 per speaker really that important in the grand scheme of things?

I mean, the crossover alone is going to cost $50-$100 per side, why use a $4 midrange?
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Old 13th September 2010, 05:54 PM   #110
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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I tried the Tang Band W2-852SH and had issues getting a consistent Fs from driver to drive when I sealed up the basket. Remeasuing T/S after sealing the baskets resulted in 30% to 35% spread - that's no good enough. The other thing I learned is as the driver gets smaller, ever small changes in the entery port size and shape make a bigger difference. When a change of 0.2cm in port lenght can create a 10dB notch in response, that's just not practical working conditions for a design. I'm working on another script using the RDC3T-A from Misco. It has a nice balance between size and workable design sensitivty. The main issue I'm running into is Akabak uses the physical voice coil placement as the acoustic center. In the real world the acoustic center of a compression driver exsists quite a bit forward of the voice coil. I've yet to figure out a way around this so the simulation will reflect real world results. I have a few leads and need to see if I can get the answer. That's the best I have right now.
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