Low Fx or no XO tweeter??

Klimon · 9th October 2006, 11:53 AM

Hi,

For the rebuilding of a pair of ipl transmissionlines I'm looking for a dome tweeter that can be crossed very low (1 to 1.5 khz, preferably with 1st order or else 2nd order slope) --- this would enable me to use a 6db slope on the alu cone woofer, getting rid of the current 18db slope at 3khz.

Probably heresy (just curious): Can certain dome tweeters (no piezo's) be operated without XO providing they are ran at a fraction of their max. output (say with 1 or a few tube watts) AND still sound close to the performance they would give when filtered of following textbook recommendations? I accidentally ran a pair of monacor dt-28n for a couple of hours without filter and they sounded surprisingly good...

Thanks!!

Simon

Salas · 9th October 2006, 12:05 PM

Try a small 50mm full ranger. They are good down to 400Hz.

Klimon · 9th October 2006, 04:27 PM

I've thought of that but it would need a separate cabinet, I only have room for something to stick 'on' (flush) the baffle.

I'll probably get away with a low Fr tweeter and 1.5k, 12db slope XO

Simon

Salas · 10th October 2006, 12:34 AM

I recommend to experiment with TB 28 847S in that case. I have used it and seems good with distortion near Fs (600Hz). Try B3 or LR4 @ 1.5k. Price is a low EUR 22,5 in Germany.
Also Seas 27TDC is nice for more than double the money. Same cross recommendation.

Klimon · 10th October 2006, 02:48 PM

Hi Salas,

The Seas looks like a good idea, Tangband looking a little 'deep' on first sight. I had my eyes set on the Peerless Vline xt25tg but the zaphaudio review doesn't recommend crossing it over too low - although I doubt he would agree with crossing any of the other candidates at 1.5K, 12db. The Northcreek D28 with specs quite similar to both the mentioned candidates gets designers approval to cross it as low as 1.5k with second order slope so I think it must be doable to use the other (cheaper) tweeters the same manner.

Thanks for your tips!

Simon

sreten · 10th October 2006, 04:01 PM

Hi,

Reworking the IPL design doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I suspect you will simply makes things worse.

/sreten.

Klimon · 10th October 2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Reworking the IPL design doesn't sound like a good idea to me...

Obviously I disagree!!

I've got a pair of s3tml's, the first speakers I've ever built. I had the crossover redesigned years ago which made a big difference already (which has already proved that reworking it can yield good results

) but the designer was still stuck with the original tweeter. When lowering the crossover to 1.5k a first order on the woofer gets possible (probably beating the S**** out of the 3rd order filter) and an XT25 with 2nd order filter is very likely to sound better than the original seas metaldome at 3khz, also 2nd order. An important side-benefit would be the better blending of both drivers as Fx gets lowered. Apart from those future-plans I've already cut out the fake dust-caps and plan to fill up the ventilation hole in the pole-piece (I don't plan to pump more than 10 watts into the thing anyway).

That how I see it, I love the s3tml's for the breathtaking bass they produce but when compared to widerange drivers or two-ways with lower order filters they just make music sound unnaturally complicated (less coherent) and lack openness. We'll hear what it brings. The worst that can happen is that I'll have to revise certain beliefs which is never a bad thing.

Best,

Simon

owdi · 11th October 2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Klimon
Hi,

For the rebuilding of a pair of ipl transmissionlines I'm looking for a dome tweeter that can be crossed very low (1 to 1.5 khz, preferably with 1st order or else 2nd order slope) --- this would enable me to use a 6db slope on the alu cone woofer, getting rid of the current 18db slope at 3khz.

Probably heresy (just curious): Can certain dome tweeters (no piezo's) be operated without XO providing they are ran at a fraction of their max. output (say with 1 or a few tube watts) AND still sound close to the performance they would give when filtered of following textbook recommendations? I accidentally ran a pair of monacor dt-28n for a couple of hours without filter and they sounded surprisingly good...

Thanks!!

Simon

Keep in mind that the tweeter already has an acoustic rolloff. Adding a single cap will result in a 3rd order rolloff (1st order electric and 2nd order acoustic).

Dan

lndm · 11th October 2006, 06:05 AM

I cross my SS 9500's at 1k5. No big deal

Crossover is first order.

I don't usually break SPL records but I can fill a room with sound. I have the impedance flattened at resonance and the crossover turns 2nd order around fs. Still though, if I get rid of the notch and the inductor, it still sounds good and plays surprisingly loud considering.

sreten · 11th October 2006, 08:29 AM

Hi,

First order on a metal coned driver ? what about BSC ?
If you can measure then fine, also see tweeter tests here :

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

/sreten.

9th October 2006, 11:53 AM	#1
Klimon diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Leuven	Low Fx or no XO tweeter?? Hi, For the rebuilding of a pair of ipl transmissionlines I'm looking for a dome tweeter that can be crossed very low (1 to 1.5 khz, preferably with 1st order or else 2nd order slope) --- this would enable me to use a 6db slope on the alu cone woofer, getting rid of the current 18db slope at 3khz. Probably heresy (just curious): Can certain dome tweeters (no piezo's) be operated without XO providing they are ran at a fraction of their max. output (say with 1 or a few tube watts) AND still sound close to the performance they would give when filtered of following textbook recommendations? I accidentally ran a pair of monacor dt-28n for a couple of hours without filter and they sounded surprisingly good... Thanks!! Simon

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9th October 2006, 12:05 PM	#2
Salas diyAudio Chief Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Athens-Greece	Try a small 50mm full ranger. They are good down to 400Hz.

9th October 2006, 04:27 PM	#3
Klimon diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Leuven	I've thought of that but it would need a separate cabinet, I only have room for something to stick 'on' (flush) the baffle. I'll probably get away with a low Fr tweeter and 1.5k, 12db slope XO Simon

10th October 2006, 12:34 AM	#4
Salas diyAudio Chief Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Athens-Greece	I recommend to experiment with TB 28 847S in that case. I have used it and seems good with distortion near Fs (600Hz). Try B3 or LR4 @ 1.5k. Price is a low EUR 22,5 in Germany. Also Seas 27TDC is nice for more than double the money. Same cross recommendation.

10th October 2006, 02:48 PM	#5
Klimon diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Leuven	Hi Salas, The Seas looks like a good idea, Tangband looking a little 'deep' on first sight. I had my eyes set on the Peerless Vline xt25tg but the zaphaudio review doesn't recommend crossing it over too low - although I doubt he would agree with crossing any of the other candidates at 1.5K, 12db. The Northcreek D28 with specs quite similar to both the mentioned candidates gets designers approval to cross it as low as 1.5k with second order slope so I think it must be doable to use the other (cheaper) tweeters the same manner. Thanks for your tips! Simon

10th October 2006, 04:01 PM	#6
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, Reworking the IPL design doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I suspect you will simply makes things worse. /sreten.

11th October 2006, 06:05 AM	#9
lndm diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: nsw	I cross my SS 9500's at 1k5. No big deal Crossover is first order. I don't usually break SPL records but I can fill a room with sound. I have the impedance flattened at resonance and the crossover turns 2nd order around fs. Still though, if I get rid of the notch and the inductor, it still sounds good and plays surprisingly loud considering.

11th October 2006, 08:29 AM	#10
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, First order on a metal coned driver ? what about BSC ? If you can measure then fine, also see tweeter tests here : http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/ /sreten.

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