I'm a noob when it comes to wood finish, but I want to do a top notch job with the baffles of my set of Planet10's Frugelhorns. I'm using multiple layers of real wood for my supra-baffles. While my camera didn't do the raw wood justice, I really want to bring out the depth of grain without too much darkening. I read with interest the thread a while back about using boiling linseed oil, followed by flame treatment once it is hardened. Has anyone tried it, and is it easy enough for a beginner to get great results?
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What is the wood?
The linseed oil finish you mention is not what I would call beginner friendly.
It takes a lot of work to get it right.
It's high risk too. Flame treating can cause burns or scorching...
Also I have only ever seen it done on very tight grained, lighter colored hardwoods like curly maple. There it can look spectactular.
Your wood looks like teak or possibly walnut (the camera didn't do it justice!)?
Judging from the darkeness and texture I would expect the wood to get very dark with linseed. Especialy after a few years when you've quit re-applying it and it starts to oxidize. Most oils, especialy non-drying, have a tendency to darken the wood. The more open, porous, soft and dark the wood the more the oil will darken it.
You can get great looking results using more forgiving materials like plain old or rub on polyurethane, polymerized tung oil, acrylic or nitro lacquers, etc.
Stains and dyes can at times be really helpful in bringing out a woods potential character. Dyes especialy can add great depth even under modern lacquers.
I would test some finishes on scraps before proceeding, that is some nice woodwork...
The linseed oil finish you mention is not what I would call beginner friendly.
It takes a lot of work to get it right.
It's high risk too. Flame treating can cause burns or scorching...
Also I have only ever seen it done on very tight grained, lighter colored hardwoods like curly maple. There it can look spectactular.
Your wood looks like teak or possibly walnut (the camera didn't do it justice!)?
Judging from the darkeness and texture I would expect the wood to get very dark with linseed. Especialy after a few years when you've quit re-applying it and it starts to oxidize. Most oils, especialy non-drying, have a tendency to darken the wood. The more open, porous, soft and dark the wood the more the oil will darken it.
You can get great looking results using more forgiving materials like plain old or rub on polyurethane, polymerized tung oil, acrylic or nitro lacquers, etc.
Stains and dyes can at times be really helpful in bringing out a woods potential character. Dyes especialy can add great depth even under modern lacquers.
I would test some finishes on scraps before proceeding, that is some nice woodwork...
I don't know anything about using a flame treatment on wood but my favorite finishes for beautiful wood are boiled linseed oil or a 50/50 mix of boiled linseed oil and tung oil. The thing about blo and blo/tung is that it takes time. The basic mantra is one coat/day for a week and one coat/week for a month. I don't always follow that exactly but the idea is multiple coats with time to dry in between each coat. I rub in the oil well, leave it for about 20 minutes and then wipe off the excess with a lintproof cloth. The first coat, you can rub in a lot of oil and you may want to thin it with mineral spirits to aid it soaking into the wood. You don't have to. The blo/tung mix does dry a little quicker than the plain blo. I typically give a light sanding with 0000 steel wool in between coats. Use a tack cloth. If you feel that you need a more spill proof surface then at the end you can put on 3 coats of satin Arm-R Seal and it will basically just look like an oil finish but will be more waterproof. This isn't a difficult finish at all but it does require some patience.
The wood is called cenizaro, which is in the mimosaceae family. It's a medium density with a wide range of color in the grain, almost black in places. It sounds like one of the modern clear finishes is the way for me to go. I'll buy a few different things and test on scraps.
I was lucky enough to find a local plywood factory that had some pretty good plywood with cenizaro as the outer laminate with amazing color too, so my side panels will be a good match with the baffles.
I was lucky enough to find a local plywood factory that had some pretty good plywood with cenizaro as the outer laminate with amazing color too, so my side panels will be a good match with the baffles.
No wonder the wood wasn't quite recognizable!
It's very nice.
Don't find that commercialy around here. Koa maybe? I think it's the same family. Might even be an alternate or local name for Koa? Just thinking out loud...
If you like the ease of use aspect of oil;
Test some polymerized tung oil (sometimes called tung oil varnish or tung oil finish). It does a good job of protecting the wood and is very moisture resistant yet is easy and forgiving to apply. It dries hard so application can be controlled to not penetrate as deeply so you won't get as much darkening as with other oils.
Wipe on poly will come close to the oil effect with even less darkening and more protection.
It's very nice.
Don't find that commercialy around here. Koa maybe? I think it's the same family. Might even be an alternate or local name for Koa? Just thinking out loud...
If you like the ease of use aspect of oil;
Test some polymerized tung oil (sometimes called tung oil varnish or tung oil finish). It does a good job of protecting the wood and is very moisture resistant yet is easy and forgiving to apply. It dries hard so application can be controlled to not penetrate as deeply so you won't get as much darkening as with other oils.
Wipe on poly will come close to the oil effect with even less darkening and more protection.
johninCR said:
That wood is beautiful as is...
Unless you want a glass finish, or have severe humidity changes, I would go with an oil... and then keep them AWAY from UV (sunlight).
I'll bet that wood feels waxy/greasy as is. A Linseed/Tung oil thing should do fine.
BTW... Nice!
P.S. An Orangutan is now living in a refridgerator box because of that wood... and the woodcutter's little kids are eating. Treat it with respect.
Unless you want a glass finish, or have severe humidity changes, I would go with an oil... and then keep them AWAY from UV (sunlight).
I'll bet that wood feels waxy/greasy as is. A Linseed/Tung oil thing should do fine.
BTW... Nice!
P.S. An Orangutan is now living in a refridgerator box because of that wood... and the woodcutter's little kids are eating. Treat it with respect.
Willitwork said:"Flame treatment" doesn't sound particularly innocuous either
I wish I had another need for a mini torch, because I'd like to try the boiling linseed finish at least on some scraps to see what happens. After it dries it becomes cloudy, then you hit it with the flame to polimerize it and clear up the cloudiness with great depth of grain.
Bob,
I live in Costa Rica and visit a couple of local lumber mills every once in a while to see what kind of exotic logs they have on hand. This stuff is from some choice planks of 1.25" x 20" wide by 4 meters that I've had curing for over 2 years, straight, flat, and no cracks through 3 rainy seasons and 2 dry seasons. I've got some other stuff, almendro, that even 16 penny nails won't go through, which I may use for the bases. It's difficult to work with though and just chews up router bits and saw blades. I did a big coffee table sub top with it, on which even a belt sander had almost no effect. I routed and planed and sanded on that top for 2 weeks. It's so hard, I haven't even needed to apply a finish.
Poobah,
No orangutans here and plenty of tree huggers in CR, so the exotic stuff is managed with special permits needed for the cenizaro.
I think the flame treatment is about polymerizing oils... for a glass finish... like old rifle stocks and such... polylinseed-o-thane. If you want a glass finish (polymer); there are easier ways these days.
I agree with brother Bartko... just some nice oil.
On the other hand, if you want a glass finish (urethane)... don't get oil ANYWHERE near it.
I agree with brother Bartko... just some nice oil.
On the other hand, if you want a glass finish (urethane)... don't get oil ANYWHERE near it.
Linspeed oil?! The old gunstock finish... apply until you're too old to shoot and it's done!
Yeah, the flame treatment is supposed to help cure the oil and help it penetrate too I suppose. It can look really really good on the right wood tho.
But straight linseed on anything less dense than a rock is not my idea of a good finish!
Absolutely correct about putting oil under and any poly/urethane/lacquer surface type finish. A recipe for disaster. Experience it once and you don't forget it.
Yeah, the flame treatment is supposed to help cure the oil and help it penetrate too I suppose. It can look really really good on the right wood tho.
But straight linseed on anything less dense than a rock is not my idea of a good finish!
Absolutely correct about putting oil under and any poly/urethane/lacquer surface type finish. A recipe for disaster. Experience it once and you don't forget it.
poobah said:I think the flame treatment is about polymerizing oils... for a glass finish... like old rifle stocks and such... polylinseed-o-thane. If you want a glass finish (polymer); there are easier ways these days.
I agree with brother Bartko... just some nice oil.
On the other hand, if you want a glass finish (urethane)... don't get oil ANYWHERE near it.
These will never get direct sunlight and these pieces have already proven to handle the humidity, and no A/C or heat needed here so temp is a non-issue. All I really want to accomplish is to bring out the grain, no glossy finish, and at least some level of protection. Can anything accomplish that with a single simple application?
jeez.. i wouldn't suggest poly
plastic.. hmm. well, it's easy, but it's still plastic. personally.. i hate the stuff.. it always looks fakey.. and i HATE the grit..
there's an abundance of good finishes out there-- danish oil, tung oil, teak oil, bartley's gel lacquer.. they're all relatively inexpensive and easy to apply. i guess the sheen is what's important in choosing-- the only of the lot that gets glossy is tung oil-- but you have to put on a lot of coats of it, hit it with 0000 steel wool between every coat, and also, get the 'gloss' version if you want it.. there's a flat too.
more importantly though, if you're really trying to retain the fire of the original wood, i'd think your most important part of the process was how you prepared the panel-- if you sanded it, you've probably already dulled it. theres a REALLY cool tool called a cabinet scraper, which is effectively, a big metal card made of steel (like that of a regular hand saw).. preparing them is kinda a pain, and you have to learn how to use it, which is why sandpaper is so popular! but they're cheap.. and if you learn to use them.. they do any wood a lot more justice, because instead of abrading wood fibers (effectively blurring them), you CUT them- much like a plane. and besides-- with really figured wood, they do an amazing job! www.leevalley.com has them-- or www.woodcraft.com
if you take a light scraping to the entire surface, you cut off all the 'fuzzed' grain, and end up with a beautiful starting point! after that-- you can put about any oil on the thing, and it retains amazing clarity.
somebody mentioned arm-r-seal.. which is also a great finish, and really easy to use.. i think it's catalyzed poly/tung oil blend.. i used it on my dining room table.. so i know it's durable!
good luck- holler if you need a quick lesson on cabinet scrapers!
d.
plastic.. hmm. well, it's easy, but it's still plastic. personally.. i hate the stuff.. it always looks fakey.. and i HATE the grit..
there's an abundance of good finishes out there-- danish oil, tung oil, teak oil, bartley's gel lacquer.. they're all relatively inexpensive and easy to apply. i guess the sheen is what's important in choosing-- the only of the lot that gets glossy is tung oil-- but you have to put on a lot of coats of it, hit it with 0000 steel wool between every coat, and also, get the 'gloss' version if you want it.. there's a flat too.
more importantly though, if you're really trying to retain the fire of the original wood, i'd think your most important part of the process was how you prepared the panel-- if you sanded it, you've probably already dulled it. theres a REALLY cool tool called a cabinet scraper, which is effectively, a big metal card made of steel (like that of a regular hand saw).. preparing them is kinda a pain, and you have to learn how to use it, which is why sandpaper is so popular! but they're cheap.. and if you learn to use them.. they do any wood a lot more justice, because instead of abrading wood fibers (effectively blurring them), you CUT them- much like a plane. and besides-- with really figured wood, they do an amazing job! www.leevalley.com has them-- or www.woodcraft.com
if you take a light scraping to the entire surface, you cut off all the 'fuzzed' grain, and end up with a beautiful starting point! after that-- you can put about any oil on the thing, and it retains amazing clarity.
somebody mentioned arm-r-seal.. which is also a great finish, and really easy to use.. i think it's catalyzed poly/tung oil blend.. i used it on my dining room table.. so i know it's durable!
good luck- holler if you need a quick lesson on cabinet scrapers!
d.
Again, thanks everyone for the advice and tips.
Unfortunately I couldn't find cabinet scrapers down here. I couldn't even find any kind of oils for wood, although I'll still check some art supply and leather goods places to see what kind of oils they have. I picked up some varnish, lacquer and wax. The wax really dulled the grain. It might get shiny with polishing but no way are the grain results acceptable. The clear varnish not only darkened the wood too much, but it changed the properties of the grain away from it's natural change based on viewing angle. The clear matte lacquer seems to be just what I was looking for. It darkens very little and enhanced the wood's properties. It's a nitro cellulose lacquer that dries very quickly. Is there anything special I should be careful of or need to know about that kind of finish, not including the obvious like use in a well ventilated area, etc.?
I'll see if I can capture the effect in pics, but the stripes in the wood grain change dramatically as your viewing angle changes, very similar the how a polished tiger eye stone changes as you tilt it. I've never seen anything like it in wood.
Unfortunately I couldn't find cabinet scrapers down here. I couldn't even find any kind of oils for wood, although I'll still check some art supply and leather goods places to see what kind of oils they have. I picked up some varnish, lacquer and wax. The wax really dulled the grain. It might get shiny with polishing but no way are the grain results acceptable. The clear varnish not only darkened the wood too much, but it changed the properties of the grain away from it's natural change based on viewing angle. The clear matte lacquer seems to be just what I was looking for. It darkens very little and enhanced the wood's properties. It's a nitro cellulose lacquer that dries very quickly. Is there anything special I should be careful of or need to know about that kind of finish, not including the obvious like use in a well ventilated area, etc.?
I'll see if I can capture the effect in pics, but the stripes in the wood grain change dramatically as your viewing angle changes, very similar the how a polished tiger eye stone changes as you tilt it. I've never seen anything like it in wood.
You will probably need some reducer or retarder for the lacquer.
If brushing or padding it will help extend the working time a bit so the finnish can be worked.
If spraying it will help prevent blushing or fogging in high humidity.
Be aware these additives can increase the level of gloss in the dried film.
The more you add the more the gloss level increases.
Using normal / recommended amounts of additive it is not usualy noticeable.
Sometimes if conditions are so bad you have to add quite a bit then be prepared for a noticeable change in gloss level.
Excessive amounts of retarder can leave an oily residue on the surface and even result in a failed film.
If brushing or padding it will help extend the working time a bit so the finnish can be worked.
If spraying it will help prevent blushing or fogging in high humidity.
Be aware these additives can increase the level of gloss in the dried film.
The more you add the more the gloss level increases.
Using normal / recommended amounts of additive it is not usualy noticeable.
Sometimes if conditions are so bad you have to add quite a bit then be prepared for a noticeable change in gloss level.
Excessive amounts of retarder can leave an oily residue on the surface and even result in a failed film.
johninCR said:
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