andy2 said:
I think you have misunderstood me, which likely is because english is not my spoken language.
What I wrote was: "I remember the bas to be quite better/more powerfull in the point75i. Also I much prefered the point75i overall, but then again I am also biased towards the point75i."
By this I tried to tell that I remeber the bas of the point75i to be the best.
Martin
Hi Martin,
thank you for your comments.
The Acapella is to large I think.
I am close to make a decision for the Point75i.
With your comments I got a better feeling concering room placement. My understanding is that it is not that critical. Moreover, even with other speakers the placement to rear/side wall has some effects.
When I google for informations about dipole speakers, I always get articles or descriptions about speakers for surround sound.
But I hope, the Point75i is a high-end speaker, not for home cinema.
Therefore, my impression was that Ekta or TJLW3 are more high-end, e.g. have more transparency.
Regards
Andreas
thank you for your comments.
The Acapella is to large I think.
I am close to make a decision for the Point75i.
With your comments I got a better feeling concering room placement. My understanding is that it is not that critical. Moreover, even with other speakers the placement to rear/side wall has some effects.
When I google for informations about dipole speakers, I always get articles or descriptions about speakers for surround sound.
But I hope, the Point75i is a high-end speaker, not for home cinema.
Therefore, my impression was that Ekta or TJLW3 are more high-end, e.g. have more transparency.
Regards
Andreas
I think the speakers you guys are recomending are way to big for such a tiny little room. One of the first rules of getting good sound is that the smaller the room the less bass output the speaker should have. If not you end up with boomy bloated bass. And its much easier to listen to a system thats missing the last octave then one with boomy overblown bass. Also I dont think the PMS is going to be an easy build for a newbies first project! For a 10x12ft room a small standmount is all you will need.
Yes your right, with eq and room treatments its possible to fix these problems. But why not just try to avoid the problem all together?? If he isnt happy with the bass output from a small 2way, he could always add an active sub. This gives you more flexibilty to play around with differant speaker placements. But I bet he wouldnt even need a sub in that room, unless he was listening to very bass heavy music like rap or electronic. And besides I dont think the PMS could be considered an entry level project for a newbie
I think a simpe 2-way bookshelf speaker is much better first project.
I think a simpe 2-way bookshelf speaker is much better first project.
I'd say ditch the attitude and measure a few of your "top" amps. As long as you don't drive any of them into clipping they'll sound and measure exactly the same as a good mid-buget NAD/Onkyo/Denon. The only difference you hear is the coins rolling out of your pocket and the laughing of a few PR guys in some expensive office
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I'd say ditch the attitude and measure a few of your "top" amps. As long as you don't drive any of them into clipping they'll sound and measure exactly the same as a good mid-buget NAD/Onkyo/Denon. The only difference you hear is the coins rolling out of your pocket and the laughing of a few PR guys in some expensive office
No need to be nasty. It doesn't become you.
If you want to stick with mediocre electronics, knock yourself out. My experience is that good electronics often makes a bigger difference to the overall performance of a system than fancy speakers. Since a lot of TG's designs actually feature more than decent drivers and crossover circuitry, it's not more than logical to do these speakers justice with some decent electronics.
In my hifi-past I have heard so many times that a systems with OK speakers driven by good electronics than really nice speakers driven by an OK amp. Hence my remark not to think too lightly about electronics. The content of a music signal is too complex for a bunch of measurements based on simpler signals to be representative. These measurements only give a primary impression of some necessary boundary conditions being met. The measurements being in the "green range" Doesn't guarantee good performance and auditory pleasant behaviour of said audio component when used for music reproduction.
Futhermore, since TG often applies series filters that reduce efficiency slightly in combination with speakerunits that do no shine in the efficiency department to begin with, a well designed amp is no superfluous luxury imho.
That said, the more recent silver line of NAD is definitely worth an audition, I was quite surprised.
At the moment I'm running my TG monitors off a set of Sugden C28/P28, fed from a Proceed PCDIII CD player, and it sounds very nicely. Sugden set was picked up second hand for 300 Euros, and the Proceed for 800. Reasonable indeed.
It’s funny you mention my attitude while I was merely mimicking your tone when you said to “ditch the NAD idea and get something decent”.
If you could give me one audible and measurable quality factor that makes your expensive stuff so much better than a properly designed €500,- amp, and not written by the PR department of said brand, I’d be impressed. Apparently countless home builders with keen ears from building countless of speakers can’t value good kit since NAD is “mediocre electronics”. I’d love to hear what Classé or Mark Levinson do better than NAD and what exactly makes them technically superior, besides marketing obviously.
“My experience is that good electronics often makes a bigger difference to the overall performance of a system than fancy speakers” is just plain and proven wrong; It is common knowledge that any speaker has an amount of linear and non-linear distortion that is much, MUCH (factors ten to thousand!), bigger than even the worst amps and CD players you can buy now and this does include any €100.000+ “superspeaker” too.
Some facts:
- It has been proven two amps with the same technical specs sound exactly alike when auditioned in a double blind test and not driven into clipping.
- It has also been proven that once you tell someone one of two things is more expensive they’ll immediately assume and even feel/hear/taste the more expensive one is better, this applies to pretty much anything you can buy except gasoline
- A proper modern amp costing €500,- at most will in general measure very well on all audible types of distortion (XO distortion, THD, linear distortion, Slew rate, transient response etc etc) all well beyond the limit of what is considered audible. I’ve seen many double blind test where experienced owners couldn’t keep two apart, and that includes specimens of €4000,- and more.
I’m sure no-one is here is waiting for this discussion so this is the last I’ll say about it, and I'm sure I'm going to regret getting this far. I’m happy you’re happy with your gear, try not to be blasé about it though, I’m happy with mine and that’s what counts.
If you gentlemen have finished having the last word- back to the PMS Conversation;
If it's any consolation; You're both right..? Probably? Maybe?
I have no idea.
Because,
I am also completely and utterly new and am halfway through building a pair of Troel's PMS speakers (Frickin'. Excited.) I'm a first year eng. student and have spent most of the year spending my cash either on booze, or saving up for the drivers and electronics for this project.
So
Q1) It's been mentioned that cheaper crossover components could be used... if so, which ones? At the moment I'm set to order the boatload of Jantzen crosscaps, but it is pretty pricy, and a more affordable alternative would be duly considered.
For any suggestions made, how much (In your opinion) would it affect sound quality?
Q2) DIY Amps. I'm Keen.
I'm still a total beginner, but I am infinitely keen to build a DIY amp (For price mostly, but the quality is nice too so I actually have something in which to plug the newly finished, loves of my life, to be.
It was mentioned that the ALDAX sets were the way to go earlier, but I'm not sure how to assemble them into a DIY amp, and could find literally nothing through google. I'm fairly confident if there are just some sort of instructions to follow that it would be dooable.
What Amp DIY build guides would you suggest for a nice quality Amp that will suit these speakers? (I will probably also want to power a Subwoofer at some point too.)
I checked out 'The Honeybadger' info on the forum, but it's overloaded with around 100 tweaks and mod's suggested by users and a little hard to follow.
Any Ideas..?
Cheers guys the amount of information and knowledge here is staggering and I was so impressed by the projects shown that it inspired me to get started right away.
Kudos
If it's any consolation; You're both right..? Probably? Maybe?
I have no idea.
Because,
I am also completely and utterly new and am halfway through building a pair of Troel's PMS speakers (Frickin'. Excited.) I'm a first year eng. student and have spent most of the year spending my cash either on booze, or saving up for the drivers and electronics for this project.
So
Q1) It's been mentioned that cheaper crossover components could be used... if so, which ones? At the moment I'm set to order the boatload of Jantzen crosscaps, but it is pretty pricy, and a more affordable alternative would be duly considered.
For any suggestions made, how much (In your opinion) would it affect sound quality?
Q2) DIY Amps. I'm Keen.
I'm still a total beginner, but I am infinitely keen to build a DIY amp (For price mostly, but the quality is nice too
so I actually have something in which to plug the newly finished, loves of my life, to be.It was mentioned that the ALDAX sets were the way to go earlier, but I'm not sure how to assemble them into a DIY amp, and could find literally nothing through google. I'm fairly confident if there are just some sort of instructions to follow that it would be dooable.
What Amp DIY build guides would you suggest for a nice quality Amp that will suit these speakers? (I will probably also want to power a Subwoofer at some point too.)
I checked out 'The Honeybadger' info on the forum, but it's overloaded with around 100 tweaks and mod's suggested by users and a little hard to follow.
Any Ideas..?
Cheers guys
the amount of information and knowledge here is staggering and I was so impressed by the projects shown that it inspired me to get started right away.Kudos
The PMS has 4 x 33mfd caps in there which alone comes to about £38. Using electrolytics reduces that to £5...
KEF uses electrolytics in its high end speakers, so they aren't that bad. Compared to crosscaps I find electrolytics a bit 'sterile' sounding - but that's a personal subjective view.
The mid on the PMS is a bit lively, so the combination of that mid plus electrolytics could make the sound a little clinical. However, this should be offset somewhat by the over warm balance Troels puts on his speakers.
Same for the inductors. The larger sizes, air cored, cost an arm and leg. Ferrite cored could sound almost as good for a fraction of the price.
If you want to save now, you wouldn't lose much in sound quality, particularly if your source and amp aren't particularly esoteric. Plus you'd always have the option to upgrade the xo at a later date
KEF uses electrolytics in its high end speakers, so they aren't that bad. Compared to crosscaps I find electrolytics a bit 'sterile' sounding - but that's a personal subjective view.
The mid on the PMS is a bit lively, so the combination of that mid plus electrolytics could make the sound a little clinical. However, this should be offset somewhat by the over warm balance Troels puts on his speakers.
Same for the inductors. The larger sizes, air cored, cost an arm and leg. Ferrite cored could sound almost as good for a fraction of the price.
If you want to save now, you wouldn't lose much in sound quality, particularly if your source and amp aren't particularly esoteric. Plus you'd always have the option to upgrade the xo at a later date
Cheers
Will see how it goes and check out the different parts I can get- Australia is a bit of a backend for this kind of thing.
I might end up doing the full crosscap setup and borrow my dad's spare (crappy) amp until I save up for some more components in 6 months or so, I still have the whole problem of what sort of amp to get/build- are the simpler chip amps okay..?
Will see how it goes and check out the different parts I can get- Australia is a bit of a backend for this kind of thing.
I might end up doing the full crosscap setup and borrow my dad's spare (crappy) amp until I save up for some more components in 6 months or so, I still have the whole problem of what sort of amp to get/build- are the simpler chip amps okay..?
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