Any Experience with Troels Gravesen Designs??? - Page 6 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 3rd December 2012, 11:27 AM   #51
Kaspari is offline Kaspari  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Kaspari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Twente
Quote:
Originally Posted by fgroen View Post
Maybe I'm a bit spoilt, since my first amp I owned was a second-hand Accuphase E-203 (back in the 80's), and it has only gone uphill from there.

Right now my reference is driven by Classé poweramp and ML preamp, an excellent combination.

I would say, ditch the NAD idea and get something decent.
I'd say ditch the attitude and measure a few of your "top" amps. As long as you don't drive any of them into clipping they'll sound and measure exactly the same as a good mid-buget NAD/Onkyo/Denon. The only difference you hear is the coins rolling out of your pocket and the laughing of a few PR guys in some expensive office .
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2012, 12:17 PM   #52
fgroen is offline fgroen  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
fgroen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspari View Post
I'd say ditch the attitude and measure a few of your "top" amps. As long as you don't drive any of them into clipping they'll sound and measure exactly the same as a good mid-buget NAD/Onkyo/Denon. The only difference you hear is the coins rolling out of your pocket and the laughing of a few PR guys in some expensive office .
No need to be nasty. It doesn't become you.

If you want to stick with mediocre electronics, knock yourself out. My experience is that good electronics often makes a bigger difference to the overall performance of a system than fancy speakers. Since a lot of TG's designs actually feature more than decent drivers and crossover circuitry, it's not more than logical to do these speakers justice with some decent electronics.
In my hifi-past I have heard so many times that a systems with OK speakers driven by good electronics than really nice speakers driven by an OK amp. Hence my remark not to think too lightly about electronics. The content of a music signal is too complex for a bunch of measurements based on simpler signals to be representative. These measurements only give a primary impression of some necessary boundary conditions being met. The measurements being in the "green range" Doesn't guarantee good performance and auditory pleasant behaviour of said audio component when used for music reproduction.

Futhermore, since TG often applies series filters that reduce efficiency slightly in combination with speakerunits that do no shine in the efficiency department to begin with, a well designed amp is no superfluous luxury imho.

That said, the more recent silver line of NAD is definitely worth an audition, I was quite surprised.

At the moment I'm running my TG monitors off a set of Sugden C28/P28, fed from a Proceed PCDIII CD player, and it sounds very nicely. Sugden set was picked up second hand for 300 Euros, and the Proceed for 800. Reasonable indeed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:05 PM   #53
Kaspari is offline Kaspari  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Kaspari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Twente
Quote:
Originally Posted by fgroen View Post
No need to be nasty. It doesn't become you.

If you want to stick with mediocre electronics, knock yourself out. My experience is that good electronics often makes a bigger difference to the overall performance of a system than fancy speakers.

That said, the more recent silver line of NAD is definitely worth an audition, I was quite surprised.
It’s funny you mention my attitude while I was merely mimicking your tone when you said to “ditch the NAD idea and get something decent”.

If you could give me one audible and measurable quality factor that makes your expensive stuff so much better than a properly designed €500,- amp, and not written by the PR department of said brand, I’d be impressed. Apparently countless home builders with keen ears from building countless of speakers can’t value good kit since NAD is “mediocre electronics”. I’d love to hear what Classé or Mark Levinson do better than NAD and what exactly makes them technically superior, besides marketing obviously.

My experience is that good electronics often makes a bigger difference to the overall performance of a system than fancy speakers” is just plain and proven wrong; It is common knowledge that any speaker has an amount of linear and non-linear distortion that is much, MUCH (factors ten to thousand!), bigger than even the worst amps and CD players you can buy now and this does include any €100.000+ “superspeaker” too.



Some facts:
  • It has been proven two amps with the same technical specs sound exactly alike when auditioned in a double blind test and not driven into clipping.
  • It has also been proven that once you tell someone one of two things is more expensive they’ll immediately assume and even feel/hear/taste the more expensive one is better, this applies to pretty much anything you can buy except gasoline
  • A proper modern amp costing €500,- at most will in general measure very well on all audible types of distortion (XO distortion, THD, linear distortion, Slew rate, transient response etc etc) all well beyond the limit of what is considered audible. I’ve seen many double blind test where experienced owners couldn’t keep two apart, and that includes specimens of €4000,- and more.
It’s interesting to see that the arguments you use have no scientific merit and are exactly the same as the ones an “audio-vendor” used when he made my dad pay €600,- to rewire his amp with silver. Of course the silver line is better, if they add "reference" to the name it will be even more fantastic

I’m sure no-one is here is waiting for this discussion so this is the last I’ll say about it, and I'm sure I'm going to regret getting this far. I’m happy you’re happy with your gear, try not to be blasé about it though, I’m happy with mine and that’s what counts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2012, 07:43 AM   #54
fgroen is offline fgroen  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
fgroen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspari View Post
I’m sure no-one is here is waiting for this discussion so this is the last I’ll say about it
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaspari View Post
try not to be blasé about it though
That's merely your interpretation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2012, 07:08 PM   #55
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
There may not be any discernable difference in measurements between amps, but there will be differences in subjective quality.

Stick any NAD you like at the side of my Naim 72/250 and you will notice a huge difference...

It's not about measurements, it's about listening to music
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2012, 02:05 PM   #56
Broseo is offline Broseo  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
If you gentlemen have finished having the last word- back to the PMS Conversation;
If it's any consolation; You're both right..? Probably? Maybe?
I have no idea.

Because,
I am also completely and utterly new and am halfway through building a pair of Troel's PMS speakers (Frickin'. Excited.) I'm a first year eng. student and have spent most of the year spending my cash either on booze, or saving up for the drivers and electronics for this project.

So
Q1) It's been mentioned that cheaper crossover components could be used... if so, which ones? At the moment I'm set to order the boatload of Jantzen crosscaps, but it is pretty pricy, and a more affordable alternative would be duly considered.
For any suggestions made, how much (In your opinion) would it affect sound quality?

Q2) DIY Amps. I'm Keen.
I'm still a total beginner, but I am infinitely keen to build a DIY amp (For price mostly, but the quality is nice too so I actually have something in which to plug the newly finished, loves of my life, to be.
It was mentioned that the ALDAX sets were the way to go earlier, but I'm not sure how to assemble them into a DIY amp, and could find literally nothing through google. I'm fairly confident if there are just some sort of instructions to follow that it would be dooable.

What Amp DIY build guides would you suggest for a nice quality Amp that will suit these speakers? (I will probably also want to power a Subwoofer at some point too.)
I checked out 'The Honeybadger' info on the forum, but it's overloaded with around 100 tweaks and mod's suggested by users and a little hard to follow.

Any Ideas..?

Cheers guys the amount of information and knowledge here is staggering and I was so impressed by the projects shown that it inspired me to get started right away.

Kudos
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2012, 05:45 PM   #57
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
The PMS has 4 x 33mfd caps in there which alone comes to about £38. Using electrolytics reduces that to £5...

KEF uses electrolytics in its high end speakers, so they aren't that bad. Compared to crosscaps I find electrolytics a bit 'sterile' sounding - but that's a personal subjective view.

The mid on the PMS is a bit lively, so the combination of that mid plus electrolytics could make the sound a little clinical. However, this should be offset somewhat by the over warm balance Troels puts on his speakers.

Same for the inductors. The larger sizes, air cored, cost an arm and leg. Ferrite cored could sound almost as good for a fraction of the price.

If you want to save now, you wouldn't lose much in sound quality, particularly if your source and amp aren't particularly esoteric. Plus you'd always have the option to upgrade the xo at a later date
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2012, 02:53 AM   #58
Broseo is offline Broseo  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Cheers

Will see how it goes and check out the different parts I can get- Australia is a bit of a backend for this kind of thing.
I might end up doing the full crosscap setup and borrow my dad's spare (crappy) amp until I save up for some more components in 6 months or so, I still have the whole problem of what sort of amp to get/build- are the simpler chip amps okay..?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AV Enthusiast Interview: Troels Gravesen mlankton Multi-Way 4 27th April 2011 05:18 AM
help me choose between 2 Troels Gravesen 3_way designs zimjj Multi-Way 4 27th April 2009 12:08 AM
Troels gravesen PMS: riddle this for me matsuru Multi-Way 3 5th January 2008 01:45 PM
Troels Gravesen W1500/97 monitor fgroen Multi-Way 9 10th March 2007 04:53 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:35 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2