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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 6th October 2006, 08:37 PM   #21
hooha is offline hooha  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by rtenyes
...in all honesty the sound didn't improve much....

I'm not surprised by this.
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Old 7th October 2006, 06:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by rtenyes
i upgraded my ref 22's last year using northcreek caps, 12g inductors and their resistors, silver wire for the tweeters and big copper pipes for the woofers (and bi-wired it). the xovers are too large to fit easily inside the cabs. i have the xover diagram that was sent to me by a very kind energy employee if any one is interested. in all honesty the sound didn't improve much. i did enjoy doing it though!
That surprises me. I upgraded the crossovers in my Ref Cons with Solen, Mills and Auricaps and I think they're significantly better. Kind of expensive to do, but I'd say they're competitive with most any speaker system up to $4000.

The biggest difference I found was changing out the 18ga iron core woofer inductor. That thing was saturating like crazy. I used a 10ga Solen Hepta-Litz, but if I was doing it again I'd just use the standard Solen 12ga air core. Either one will match the DCR of the original coil pretty well. That change really freed up the bass dynamics. The cap upgrade made the sound a little smoother and more detailed.
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Old 7th October 2006, 08:49 PM   #23
rtenyes is offline rtenyes  United States
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without any type of testing equipment i can only give a subjective account of the change w/the upgraded components. the overall sound did improve mostly in the upper end. there is now less 'smearing' of the treble and as a whole the sound is 'cleaner' with a larger sound stage (subjective,subjective...). the upgraded xovers cost me more than my ebay ref 22's. my point was that the change wasn't big or dramatic. i built a sub and added it to my system, now that was a dramatic change! i do agree that these 20+ year old speakers sound better than most hi end crap being sold now and for so much less $.
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Old 7th October 2006, 10:19 PM   #24
rtenyes is offline rtenyes  United States
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hopefully this works... xover schematic..?..?
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Old 8th October 2006, 05:09 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by rtenyes
hopefully this works... xover schematic..?..?
The drawing you've posted is for the 22 Pro. I have a schematic for the 22 Reference and 22 Reference Connoisseur, which I'll post tomorrow. The choke values seem to be different (.995 and .386 mH in my circuit).
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Old 9th October 2006, 02:42 AM   #26
hooha is offline hooha  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by audiobomber


That surprises me. I upgraded the crossovers in my Ref Cons with Solen, Mills and Auricaps and I think they're significantly better. Kind of expensive to do, but I'd say they're competitive with most any speaker system up to $4000.

The biggest difference I found was changing out the 18ga iron core woofer inductor. That thing was saturating like crazy. I used a 10ga Solen Hepta-Litz, but if I was doing it again I'd just use the standard Solen 12ga air core. Either one will match the DCR of the original coil pretty well. That change really freed up the bass dynamics. The cap upgrade made the sound a little smoother and more detailed.

Saturating? You must have been pouring more than 500 watts through it since that is what its capable of taking.
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Old 9th October 2006, 03:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by hooha



Saturating? You must have been pouring more than 500 watts through it since that is what its capable of taking.
If it wasn't saturating, why did it sound so constipated vs a good air core?
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Old 9th October 2006, 04:09 PM   #28
spind is offline spind  Canada
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Ross,

Thanks for posting the pro22 crossover values. The pro22 and reference 22 should be very similar (?) as the main difference in these two speakers was the location of the port (back vs front). Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

The pro22 crossover is also very similar to what I found in my reference connoisseurs. There is a difference in R1 (2.7 vs 2 ohms---if I read the value on your sheet correctly).

I have inductor and capacitor capabilities on my voltmeter and I get .71 and .66 mH for my two ferrite inductors and .34 and .36 mH for my air core inductors. Does your schematic show .82 and .39 mH? (it's a bit hard to see). Interestingly, I read 56-57 uF for both of my bi-polar capacitors, which is probably within their normal range, but I also read over 50 uF for one of my 6 uF mylar caps (????---but one of my tweeters has some problems, perhaps this is why??--either that or a measurement error). Everything else was close to spec---my 10.7 uF pairs read 10.96 and 10.93.

Mark and Dan: very interesting comments. It will be interesting to see additional information you have on the crossover values.

best,
steve.
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Old 9th October 2006, 07:23 PM   #29
spind is offline spind  Canada
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Mark (hooha),

Perhaps, with your experience as a former employee when the 22's were being made, you could help clear up some questions about the drivers used in these speakers.

I have read on the net that different tweeters were used in the ref connoisseurs vs the pro22 and ref 22's; I have also read that the woofers and tweeters were the same in all 3 models---they were just handpicked to match better for the ref connoisseurs. Are either of these two scenarios correct?

I have seen tweeters marked 'PL513' 'P94C2' and 'PL9H4' What is the significance of these markings? Are they slightly different models? I have also heard that a metal tweeter and one with plastic--is this true?

thanks,
Steve.
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Old 9th October 2006, 07:23 PM   #30
hooha is offline hooha  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by audiobomber


If it wasn't saturating, why did it sound so constipated vs a good air core?
Constipation is not saturation, although I do like that term better when describing how I feel when I don't eat my wheaties...

Believe me, if the coil was saturating, it would not have been part of the design.

Mark
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