3 sets of ears. Myself and two unbiased friends say that my own best efforts are not as good as B&W 800 series. Very disappointing, but I'm an amateur and it was my first attempt.
Beating the B&W 800's is my own personal goal in DIY speaker building.
My drivers
2 Seas Millenium tweeter
2 BG RD40 ribbons
4 scanspeak 21w8554's
2 Dayton RS alumimum woofs
crossover: all digital PC
My speakers sound detailed and at times lifelike. But they lack coherence. I'd estimate they sound better than NHT ST4's and lowend Maggies, but lag the B&W's by a large margin.
Beating the B&W 800's is my own personal goal in DIY speaker building.
My drivers
2 Seas Millenium tweeter
2 BG RD40 ribbons
4 scanspeak 21w8554's
2 Dayton RS alumimum woofs
crossover: all digital PC
My speakers sound detailed and at times lifelike. But they lack coherence. I'd estimate they sound better than NHT ST4's and lowend Maggies, but lag the B&W's by a large margin.
salas said:
Salas, you are the first person who has ever said that a digital crossover was inherently worse than an active or passive analog crossover. Most of the comments I've seen say that passive speaker level crossovers are still very good possibly better sounding than active analog crossovers such as the Marchand. Have you tried digital crossovers? In particular either Voxengo or Thuneau ones using VST plugins?
I listened to several FIR based crossovers and decided I didnt like the sound. But the IIR type crossovers sound very natural to me.
Daveis said:
The Marchand crossovers may be good within their limits, but if you read Linkwitz you will see that they are missing important bits to work with modern stiff cone drivers. They will do fine with forgiving drivers operated away from their limits, but do nothing for breakup modes, baffle step and other response irregularities or phase matching.
Active boards such as Linkwitz' ASP and the group buy board here offer various equalization options and phase correction. The latter is probably more important - Linkwitz says active crossovers without it are marginally useful. I won't go that far, since if each section of a filter can be tuned individually you can get phase correction without a dedicated section. Marchand would require some surgery to accomplish this.
So, yes, a properly designed passive crossover will beat a generic active crossover, no matter whether digital or analog. Just like going to the formulas and cranking out a crossover for your 8 ohm woofer and 8 ohm tweeter generally doesn't work well.
I am more likely to go the whole way through a few iterations with an active crossover because I can change out a few cents worth of resistors and have something new. Beats the heck out of rolling $25 caps in and out of the crossover.
There are cards MUCH better than the Audigy - take a look at M-Audio or other pro level cards. Soundblaster is all about making MP3s bearable.
/rant, and back to the original topic.
I don't know. Mine certainly are better than what I've heard. I've tried to listen to them at two different stores. The first had obviously (to me at least) partially cooked the tweeters - they were harsh, spitty and the demo was so uncomfortably loud I had to walk out. (A generally well regarded Long Island store, but the salesman didn't know jack about his products. The Dunlavys also had blown tweeters...)
The second store refused to demo them, saying that the neighboring stores would complain about the noise. I went after work, in a good suit, so I don't think it was because he didn't think I could afford them. I guess their sales pitch is "trust me they're great. Shall I put them on your Visa?"
I haven't had my coffee, so here goes.
1. The B&W 800 series speakers are well engineered cost-no-object box speakers. The cabinets are amongst the best (extremely extensive bracing), the drivers are very good (but most likely not head and shoulders above the rest), and the crossover is well engineered (reviews shows exemplary measured performance)
2. What makes you think your first DIY speaker is any good?
What your cabinet like? What drivers have you chosen, and more importantly, have you implemented them correctly? What's your crossover like, do you have any measurements? The frequency response (on axis, off axis), reverse null, harmonic distortion etc?
It doesn't matter whether you're using passive crossover, active crossovers, a computer, digital linear phase or whatever.
The most important part is it's correct implementation and
optimzation.
3. A noobie's first DIY speaker cannot beat a commercial manufacturer's top-tier product, that has evolved through many iterations, and on the back of 40 years of experience.
Design a dozen or so speakers, and might stand half a flying chance:
http://www.rjbaudio.com/AlpheusMkII/alpheusmkii.html
(see review at the bottom where this is reviewed by an 802N owner)
1. The B&W 800 series speakers are well engineered cost-no-object box speakers. The cabinets are amongst the best (extremely extensive bracing), the drivers are very good (but most likely not head and shoulders above the rest), and the crossover is well engineered (reviews shows exemplary measured performance)
2. What makes you think your first DIY speaker is any good?
What your cabinet like? What drivers have you chosen, and more importantly, have you implemented them correctly? What's your crossover like, do you have any measurements? The frequency response (on axis, off axis), reverse null, harmonic distortion etc?
It doesn't matter whether you're using passive crossover, active crossovers, a computer, digital linear phase or whatever.
The most important part is it's correct implementation and
optimzation.
3. A noobie's first DIY speaker cannot beat a commercial manufacturer's top-tier product, that has evolved through many iterations, and on the back of 40 years of experience.
Design a dozen or so speakers, and might stand half a flying chance:
http://www.rjbaudio.com/AlpheusMkII/alpheusmkii.html
(see review at the bottom where this is reviewed by an 802N owner)
Re: Bratislav
Unfortunately, those aren't mine ... But there are at least two pairs in Melbourne that can be heard. Have a look at Planet Audio forum.
I am totally sold on concept (dipole/active/electronic crossovers), just a few niggly things are still preventing me from making a pair.
Once you hear boxless/dipole bass there is no going back.
ttan98 said:
Unfortunately, those aren't mine ... But there are at least two pairs in Melbourne that can be heard. Have a look at Planet Audio forum.
I am totally sold on concept (dipole/active/electronic crossovers), just a few niggly things are still preventing me from making a pair.
Once you hear boxless/dipole bass there is no going back.
I should go seek out some of these B&W's to compare!
I think BobEllis knows what I have. At any rate, I've seen him around the right places for him to have come across the project, he may not.
And, never heard a digital crossover that was as good as a passive. Best I heard was done with the DEQX. I've heard a number of others with the DCX. The one I heard with Excel drivers was incredibly disappointing.
Trying to look the 800's up, but their site uses Flash and is taking forever to download on the train. Stupid people. Useless resulting page too. At any rate, I'd guess the difference in subjective preferences in a speaker will play a role so who knows. I don't trust my own opinion to some degree when it comes to this kind of stuff.
I think BobEllis knows what I have. At any rate, I've seen him around the right places for him to have come across the project, he may not.
And, never heard a digital crossover that was as good as a passive. Best I heard was done with the DEQX. I've heard a number of others with the DCX. The one I heard with Excel drivers was incredibly disappointing.
Trying to look the 800's up, but their site uses Flash and is taking forever to download on the train. Stupid people. Useless resulting page too. At any rate, I'd guess the difference in subjective preferences in a speaker will play a role so who knows. I don't trust my own opinion to some degree when it comes to this kind of stuff.
samsagaz said:
You can purchase the plans plus a license to build them for your own personal use from Siegfried for $170 plus an additional $100 for a pair of cross-over boards.
Roughly 60 hours and $2000 (for drivers, electronics, and wood to build the cabinets) later you have a finished pair of Orions. That worked well for me.
If you have less time you can buy an assembled cross-over, flat pack of cabinet parts, or even assembled cabinets.
You can buy the whole thing, assembled with amplifiers, starting at $7,500. You can pay more if you want to use fancy wood finishes.
http://linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm
If I were in the market for a $10k set of stereo speakers, I'd really have to consider the Orions. If I had to spend $50k on a set of speakers (I would never spend that much, even if I won the lottery), I'd really have to consider the B&W Nautilus, as well as the B&O Beolab 5, and possibly things from Avalon, Wilson, and Martin Logan.
If you're spending more than $2k on a set of stereo speakers, you'd better have a good room to put them in. I'm talking about something where the speakers can have as much space between them and the walls as they want, and a listening position that's somewhere in the "sweet spot". Really, it's possible to waste the best speakers in the world just by throwing them randomly into the corners and up against the wall, with the listening position nowhere near between the speakers.
Room placement, equalization, room treatments (diffusion, absorbtion, bass traps), room geometry, source equipment, and other factors can all make or break ANY speaker setup. So yeah- a $500 design could beat the B&W 800s if the DIY was optimally placed and considered and the B&Ws were shoehorned where they didn't belong.
My $0.02.
http://linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm
If I were in the market for a $10k set of stereo speakers, I'd really have to consider the Orions. If I had to spend $50k on a set of speakers (I would never spend that much, even if I won the lottery), I'd really have to consider the B&W Nautilus, as well as the B&O Beolab 5, and possibly things from Avalon, Wilson, and Martin Logan.
If you're spending more than $2k on a set of stereo speakers, you'd better have a good room to put them in. I'm talking about something where the speakers can have as much space between them and the walls as they want, and a listening position that's somewhere in the "sweet spot". Really, it's possible to waste the best speakers in the world just by throwing them randomly into the corners and up against the wall, with the listening position nowhere near between the speakers.
Room placement, equalization, room treatments (diffusion, absorbtion, bass traps), room geometry, source equipment, and other factors can all make or break ANY speaker setup. So yeah- a $500 design could beat the B&W 800s if the DIY was optimally placed and considered and the B&Ws were shoehorned where they didn't belong.
My $0.02.
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