Hi
I've always been a fan of the Duntech Sovereign but was never sure i wanted to take on a project of that size. Well i'm still not sure but would like to throw it out there and try and get some help from the diyAudio community.
Some changes i'd like to propose are:
Utilizing 2 - 15" TC2+ drivers per side for the bottom end (i've got those drivers). These will be driven with a dedicated amplifier and will pretty much perform as subwoofers,
1 - 8" midbass,
1 - 3"-5" midrange dome,
1 - 1" soft dome tweeter.
I realize it won't bear a huge resemblance to the Duntech but it's the overall look i like (tall and relatively narrow).
I haven't gotten the drivers figured out yet - i'm not sure if an 8" midbass will be sufficient for mating a pair of sealed 15" subs to the midrange driver.
The budget for this is somewhat variable. I'd like good drivers but likely couldn't afford the best (top of the line Morel etc).
I have built several pairs of speakers over the last 20 years as time has permitted but would like to delve into this a little deeper now. I've got a shop set up in my garage so i've got the room to work on a project like this.
Any opinions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks, Scott
I've always been a fan of the Duntech Sovereign but was never sure i wanted to take on a project of that size. Well i'm still not sure but would like to throw it out there and try and get some help from the diyAudio community.
Some changes i'd like to propose are:
Utilizing 2 - 15" TC2+ drivers per side for the bottom end (i've got those drivers). These will be driven with a dedicated amplifier and will pretty much perform as subwoofers,
1 - 8" midbass,
1 - 3"-5" midrange dome,
1 - 1" soft dome tweeter.
I realize it won't bear a huge resemblance to the Duntech but it's the overall look i like (tall and relatively narrow).
I haven't gotten the drivers figured out yet - i'm not sure if an 8" midbass will be sufficient for mating a pair of sealed 15" subs to the midrange driver.
The budget for this is somewhat variable. I'd like good drivers but likely couldn't afford the best (top of the line Morel etc).
I have built several pairs of speakers over the last 20 years as time has permitted but would like to delve into this a little deeper now. I've got a shop set up in my garage so i've got the room to work on a project like this.
Any opinions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks, Scott
Duntech = Time aligned drivers, SWMTMWS/D'Appolito, 1st order x-o's and sealed enclosures.
If you want to follow that you should pick the right drivers to make it work.
I've never seen 3"-5" domes, so maybe you should just stick with the ordinary 2".
Edit: Humm, one question. How does one get the drivers time aligned? What are the drawbacks of this?
If you want to follow that you should pick the right drivers to make it work.
I've never seen 3"-5" domes, so maybe you should just stick with the ordinary 2".
Edit: Humm, one question. How does one get the drivers time aligned? What are the drawbacks of this?
In fact it's more the appearance than necessarily the crossover type that i'm after. Finding drivers that can handle appreciable power and have smooth roll off outside of their normal bandwidth would probably blow the budget!
Time alignment would be nice and shouldn't be too difficult to attain though i'm curious about diffraction issues with the pronounced steps on the Sovereign's baffle.
Vifa makes a 3" dome that looks like it might fit the job. I thought ATC also made one though i'm under the impression they are pricey drivers.
Scott
Time alignment would be nice and shouldn't be too difficult to attain though i'm curious about diffraction issues with the pronounced steps on the Sovereign's baffle.
Vifa makes a 3" dome that looks like it might fit the job. I thought ATC also made one though i'm under the impression they are pricey drivers.
Scott
Hi boogs,
IMHO your "clone" is more similar to DUNLAVY SC-VI.
If I can ,I suggest a HALF version, only SWF-W-M-T.
An extra simplification can be at the first point of x-over:
if you active biamp at 60-70Hz with a 18or24dB slope you can save
90% of the sonic signature of the system. The "sat" will be true first
order of course. A little compromise can be help
Another advantage of this solution can be a side firing solution for the SWF, with a cabinet only 10"x 42" front.
Just my personal opinion.
Cheers,
Inertial
IMHO your "clone" is more similar to DUNLAVY SC-VI.
If I can ,I suggest a HALF version, only SWF-W-M-T.
An extra simplification can be at the first point of x-over:
if you active biamp at 60-70Hz with a 18or24dB slope you can save
90% of the sonic signature of the system. The "sat" will be true first
order of course. A little compromise can be help
Another advantage of this solution can be a side firing solution for the SWF, with a cabinet only 10"x 42" front.
Just my personal opinion.
Cheers,
Inertial
"Since your in Canada, Solen can supply both the Vifa and ATC 3" domes."
For some reason i primarily look at drivers on PartsExpress (i think the specs are easier to read and the site has logical progression) and primarily buy crossover parts at Solen (they are comparably priced, or at least they were until the Canadian dollar started to rise). I did have a look last night at Solen's selection of drivers - I'll have to give them a call and see what they can do for me - thanks for the reminder!
"IMHO your "clone" is more similar to DUNLAVY SC-VI."
You know i never looked up Dunlavy designs - the SC VI is very close to what i'm after!
I had intended to run the 15'(s) as subs, so crossed over around 70 or 80hz to the midbass unit(s). The subs will have their own dedicated amplifier (Adcom GFA 585LE) while the mid and top end will be used with an Adcom GFA555.
I've never done a side firing sub. How is phase affected, particularily at the crossover point to the midbass units? It certainly would give the speakers a more elegant appearance.
Any ideas on driver selection? I know it's a broad question with many possible answers but i'm unsure as to which drivers will mate up well with each other.
Thanks for the replies!
Scott
For some reason i primarily look at drivers on PartsExpress (i think the specs are easier to read and the site has logical progression) and primarily buy crossover parts at Solen (they are comparably priced, or at least they were until the Canadian dollar started to rise). I did have a look last night at Solen's selection of drivers - I'll have to give them a call and see what they can do for me - thanks for the reminder!
"IMHO your "clone" is more similar to DUNLAVY SC-VI."
You know i never looked up Dunlavy designs - the SC VI is very close to what i'm after!
I had intended to run the 15'(s) as subs, so crossed over around 70 or 80hz to the midbass unit(s). The subs will have their own dedicated amplifier (Adcom GFA 585LE) while the mid and top end will be used with an Adcom GFA555.
I've never done a side firing sub. How is phase affected, particularily at the crossover point to the midbass units? It certainly would give the speakers a more elegant appearance.
Any ideas on driver selection? I know it's a broad question with many possible answers but i'm unsure as to which drivers will mate up well with each other.
Thanks for the replies!
Scott
Hi Scott,
IMHO side firing swf at 70/80Hz have near zero issues ( 18/24 dB)
What is your electronic x-over?
Your issues is the "rest"........
A true first acoustic order 3 way sat with (relative) inexpensive
drivers is not easy job .
midbass 8" ( seas, peerless) from 80 to about 400Hz
mid 4 or 5" ( seas,peerless) from 400 to about 4500Hz
tw seas 27TFDC from 4500 to 20000 Hz
IMHO the mid is the biggest issue. A 4" for "quality" or 5" for "spl"?
Maybe a Morel 114s can be sufficient.......
If I well remember the SC-VI = 5"mids but SC-V = 3,5" mids .
My subjective preference was for the "little" !
Cheers,
Inertial
IMHO side firing swf at 70/80Hz have near zero issues ( 18/24 dB)
What is your electronic x-over?
Your issues is the "rest"........
A true first acoustic order 3 way sat with (relative) inexpensive
drivers is not easy job .
midbass 8" ( seas, peerless) from 80 to about 400Hz
mid 4 or 5" ( seas,peerless) from 400 to about 4500Hz
tw seas 27TFDC from 4500 to 20000 Hz
IMHO the mid is the biggest issue. A 4" for "quality" or 5" for "spl"?
Maybe a Morel 114s can be sufficient.......
If I well remember the SC-VI = 5"mids but SC-V = 3,5" mids .
My subjective preference was for the "little" !
Cheers,
Inertial
DUNLAVY VI - Clone the latest and the best
Full-range, floorstanding loudspeaker. Drive-units: two 15" long-throw paper-cone woofers, two 8" long-throw paper-cone woofers, two 5.5" plastic-cone midrange units, and one 1" silk-dome tweeter. Frequency response: 25Hz-20kHz, ±0.5dB (approx. -3dB at 20Hz). Acoustic phase response: less than +1 degrees, -2 degrees, 100Hz-10kHz. Sensitivity: 91dB/W/m (2.83V RMS). Nominal impedance: 5 ohms. Minimum impedance: 3 ohms. Maximum impedance: 7.5 ohms (including bass resonance). Radiation pattern: symmetrical in both vertical and horizontal planes. Low-frequency damping: Q = 0.6 (with initial rolloff of 6-8dB/octave). Crossover design: minimum-phase type (6dB/octave) compensated for driver response anomalies and resonance/phase variations. Harmonic distortion: less than 0.3% for an spl of 90dB at 1m for all frequencies above 40Hz. Power handling: approximately 250W peak for 10ms.
Full-range, floorstanding loudspeaker. Drive-units: two 15" long-throw paper-cone woofers, two 8" long-throw paper-cone woofers, two 5.5" plastic-cone midrange units, and one 1" silk-dome tweeter. Frequency response: 25Hz-20kHz, ±0.5dB (approx. -3dB at 20Hz). Acoustic phase response: less than +1 degrees, -2 degrees, 100Hz-10kHz. Sensitivity: 91dB/W/m (2.83V RMS). Nominal impedance: 5 ohms. Minimum impedance: 3 ohms. Maximum impedance: 7.5 ohms (including bass resonance). Radiation pattern: symmetrical in both vertical and horizontal planes. Low-frequency damping: Q = 0.6 (with initial rolloff of 6-8dB/octave). Crossover design: minimum-phase type (6dB/octave) compensated for driver response anomalies and resonance/phase variations. Harmonic distortion: less than 0.3% for an spl of 90dB at 1m for all frequencies above 40Hz. Power handling: approximately 250W peak for 10ms.
D'Apollito means 4th order Linkwitz Riley so it's not D'Apollito and it came out long before D'Apollito, too. It is indeed 1st order crossover throughout which is a very difficult design due to the wide bandwidth both above and below xover for each driver.
I'd consider making it D'Apollito even though the xover cost will be extremely high.
I'd use a software program for the xover design since impedance correction will be needed, more than likely.
To measure arrival time (and therefore axial offsets) is quite easy actually. Get the low and high pass drivers in their proper totally separate but final enclosures and baffles and then (keeping them apart) aim them at a small condensor mic and sweep the frequency (at the desired xover frequency) +-1/2 octave with the two drivers in opposite polarity.
Adjust their distances from the mic and their levels so their output cancels and you're done. Just measure their distances from the mic and the difference is the offset. If you do first order, sweep +- 2 octaves!! You'll find this is easier said than done with the vast majority of divers...which is why Dunlavy was such a fine engineer!
I time aligned several 1st order systems this way but never more than a 3 way. If you want to get fancy....try constant voltage series connected 1st order crossovers....that's even more fun and gaurantees exact amplitude and phase summing (at least in the xover).
Good luck!
I'd consider making it D'Apollito even though the xover cost will be extremely high.
I'd use a software program for the xover design since impedance correction will be needed, more than likely. To measure arrival time (and therefore axial offsets) is quite easy actually. Get the low and high pass drivers in their proper totally separate but final enclosures and baffles and then (keeping them apart) aim them at a small condensor mic and sweep the frequency (at the desired xover frequency) +-1/2 octave with the two drivers in opposite polarity.
Adjust their distances from the mic and their levels so their output cancels and you're done. Just measure their distances from the mic and the difference is the offset.
If you do first order, sweep +- 2 octaves!! You'll find this is easier said than done with the vast majority of divers...which is why Dunlavy was such a fine engineer! I time aligned several 1st order systems this way but never more than a 3 way. If you want to get fancy....try constant voltage series connected 1st order crossovers....that's even more fun and gaurantees exact amplitude and phase summing (at least in the xover).
Good luck!
You might also like to check out VAF speakers.
http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?audio=signature&grunt=s200r26719
http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?audio=signature&grunt=s200r26719
Thanks for the replies!
The VAF speakers are very similar to what i'm thinking of building as well.
Last night i was working through some models with Xover Pro and wondered about some existing Audax woofers i have. I've got 8 AP170Z0's on hand with no plans for them in the near future. It got me thinking about the old Audax HT speakers which use these drivers in a typical MTM. Then i wondered about running 4 instead of 2 along with an efficient tweeter and the proposed 15" subwoofers. Efficency would be good and goes along with the "more is better"approach with regards to more drivers=less distortion. However i know little about comb filtering effects and wonder about the downsides of having a mini-array flanked by 2 15" woofers.
Would this be a bad idea or something worth looking at, in depth?
I know the Audax drivers aren't the best around but the price sure is right and would only require good tweeters and some crossover parts.
Opinions??
Thanks!!!
Scott
The VAF speakers are very similar to what i'm thinking of building as well.
Last night i was working through some models with Xover Pro and wondered about some existing Audax woofers i have. I've got 8 AP170Z0's on hand with no plans for them in the near future. It got me thinking about the old Audax HT speakers which use these drivers in a typical MTM. Then i wondered about running 4 instead of 2 along with an efficient tweeter and the proposed 15" subwoofers. Efficency would be good and goes along with the "more is better"approach with regards to more drivers=less distortion. However i know little about comb filtering effects and wonder about the downsides of having a mini-array flanked by 2 15" woofers.
Would this be a bad idea or something worth looking at, in depth?
I know the Audax drivers aren't the best around but the price sure is right and would only require good tweeters and some crossover parts.
Opinions??
Thanks!!!
Scott
I'm treading into territory that I possibly have no idea on....
What if you try a power tapering arrangement with the Audax mids, like the rolling off the outer two before the inner two. If you crossover low enough to the two 15 in subwoofers, there shouldn't be any problems in that region because bass wavelengths are so wide. However there probably would be some issues in the MMTMM part, i'm just not sure what.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/cynosure/index.html
Kind of like this project.
What if you try a power tapering arrangement with the Audax mids, like the rolling off the outer two before the inner two. If you crossover low enough to the two 15 in subwoofers, there shouldn't be any problems in that region because bass wavelengths are so wide. However there probably would be some issues in the MMTMM part, i'm just not sure what.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/cynosure/index.html
Kind of like this project.
It holds only for odd acoustic slopes. I.e. 6 & 18 & 36 (36 is attainable with a digital processor).
It just degenerated to MTM by the industry.
LR24 was invented to hold the lobe straight originally and used in KEF 105 for that precice reason foremostly.
D'Apollito keeps it more fleshed out also. It creates cancellations lower though, hence the 24dB the industry opts bcs they cant afford midbass drivers additionally to mids.
No accident it is practised in an odd slope orthodox manner in expensive 4 way tower type symmetrical speakers like Duntech, Dunlavy, Dynaudio.
And only there it really shines, with no lateral croosregion emphasis as in the cheaper MTM norm.
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