Hello,
I've an open baffle that cover the 200Hz 20Khz frequency range at 96db/1W/8Ohm. So I'm looking for a good bass woofer to go with...
Problem is that I prefer it to be passive, so exit OB woofer because no equalisation.
I prefer close cabinet for transcient response and lit's ess boomy than bass-reflex.
So what's your opinion about having dipole above 200Hz and monopole under 200Hz.
And do you have some opinion on a good closed box from the lower frequencies to 200Hz.
I had the idea to put 4 10" in serie paralel configuration to achieve good bass response, and sensitivity in the 96db range.
Do you have some opinions on this or oder ideas...
Thanks
I've an open baffle that cover the 200Hz 20Khz frequency range at 96db/1W/8Ohm. So I'm looking for a good bass woofer to go with...
Problem is that I prefer it to be passive, so exit OB woofer because no equalisation.
I prefer close cabinet for transcient response and lit's ess boomy than bass-reflex.
So what's your opinion about having dipole above 200Hz and monopole under 200Hz.
And do you have some opinion on a good closed box from the lower frequencies to 200Hz.
I had the idea to put 4 10" in serie paralel configuration to achieve good bass response, and sensitivity in the 96db range.
Do you have some opinions on this or oder ideas...
Thanks
After lots and lots of thinking, I'm probably going to use Peerless SLS-8's afterall in closed cabinet. I'm gonna use two for some ~90dB sensitivity, in a cabinet of 150 litres or so. Maybe bigger.
SLS-8 (and SLS-10) should give F3 a tad under 50Hz. For 96dB sensitivity, you could use 3 woofer per side. Cabinet for 3 could be about 150 litres minimum (for qtc=0.707), but bigger would be better.
EDIT: The load would be difficult with three woofers though..
SLS-8 (and SLS-10) should give F3 a tad under 50Hz. For 96dB sensitivity, you could use 3 woofer per side. Cabinet for 3 could be about 150 litres minimum (for qtc=0.707), but bigger would be better.
EDIT: The load would be difficult with three woofers though..
Not sure you can get the Madison 21" woofers where you live - no eq needed
Here is what I did with them on an open baffle
Here is what I did with them on an open baffle
Hugo,
with limiting yourself to passive x-overs you are cutting your one leg. And with constricting to monopole bass below 200 Hz you are cutting your other leg. Which leaves you paralyzed. That´s IMHO
I know this is a harsh metapher, but let me explain:
Getting some plate amp with an appropriate LP x-over or a stereo amp with some passive-line-level x-over will give you much more choice in the woofer compartment for a lower price than investing in high efficiency woofers.
And avoiding dipole operation where it works best for you (below 200 Hz) can only be excused if size is a real problem for you. Both simulation and experience have led me to the conclusion, that the cancellation of (some) room modes which you get with that dipole bass is more helpful to the reproduction of music in a room than the "spaciness" which dipole mids can give you.
So it would be a pity if you stop short of a fullfledged dipole system.
Rudolf
with limiting yourself to passive x-overs you are cutting your one leg. And with constricting to monopole bass below 200 Hz you are cutting your other leg. Which leaves you paralyzed. That´s IMHO
I know this is a harsh metapher, but let me explain:
Getting some plate amp with an appropriate LP x-over or a stereo amp with some passive-line-level x-over will give you much more choice in the woofer compartment for a lower price than investing in high efficiency woofers.
And avoiding dipole operation where it works best for you (below 200 Hz) can only be excused if size is a real problem for you. Both simulation and experience have led me to the conclusion, that the cancellation of (some) room modes which you get with that dipole bass is more helpful to the reproduction of music in a room than the "spaciness" which dipole mids can give you.
So it would be a pity if you stop short of a fullfledged dipole system.
Rudolf
Thanks for all your replies....
So do you know how they do their EQ? Of course it's in a passive way, that's why I'm interested in... And do you think it's possible to do the same with a lot of 10", a little less 12", less 15", 18", or like magnetar : 21"?
Thanks
Hugues
My first idea was to be in all passive configuration, thats means passive crossover without EQ.When you say passive, do you mean you want to restrict yourself to a passive crossover, or just not use EQ?
Not sure you can get the Madison 21" woofers where you live - no eq needed
Yes I know that dipole for bass is very good, and reduce room mode. I've heard the jamo r909 and was very impressed with their bass.with limiting yourself to passive x-overs you are cutting your one leg. And with constricting to monopole bass below 200 Hz you are cutting your other leg. Which leaves you paralyzed. That´s IMHO
I know this is a harsh metapher, but let me explain:
Getting some plate amp with an appropriate LP x-over or a stereo amp with some passive-line-level x-over will give you much more choice in the woofer compartment for a lower price than investing in high efficiency woofers.
And avoiding dipole operation where it works best for you (below 200 Hz) can only be excused if size is a real problem for you. Both simulation and experience have led me to the conclusion, that the cancellation of (some) room modes which you get with that dipole bass is more helpful to the reproduction of music in a room than the "spaciness" which dipole mids can give you.
So it would be a pity if you stop short of a fullfledged dipole system.
So do you know how they do their EQ? Of course it's in a passive way, that's why I'm interested in... And do you think it's possible to do the same with a lot of 10", a little less 12", less 15", 18", or like magnetar : 21"?
Thanks
Hugues
Originally posted by hugobors
So do you know how they do their EQ? Of course it's in a passive way, that's why I'm interested in... And do you think it's possible to do the same with a lot of 10", a little less 12", less 15", 18", or like magnetar : 21"?
Thanks
Hugues [/B]
Allmost imposible mission, bass dipol and get 96 dB/1W/1m. Look at Jamo 909. Its 2*38 cm basses, probably 95-96 dB each, two in parallel 98-99 dB, but dipol gives -10 dB. So, its 88-89 dB/1W/1m at bass, and probably 1-2 dB less for mid.
In your case, where you need finaly 96 dB, you need 4 bass units for each channel. 101-102 dB per one, +6 dB for four (parallel+series) -10 dB in dipol, its 97-98 dB (minus 1-2 dB over passive x-over). That means 4*18" basses with high efficent.
All this means much much power. Again, active is (allmost) inevitable. For dipol specialy.
If the passive is your final decision, I think you can only go with one 18" (or bigger) 8 Ohm bass with 97-98 dB efficient in bass-reflex enclosure.
Any other way is active or death.
hugobors said:
So do you know how they do their EQ? Of course it's in a passive way, that's why I'm interested in...
Hugues,
as Notax already explained, you will not get bass dipole action at 96 dB/1W/1m passively. Jamo, I believe, are attenuating those woofers heavily from 40 to 250 Hz (theoretically it should be almost 15 dB, but 10 dB certainly are more realistic). So you need REALLY efficient woofers and REALLY big amps and REALLY expensive fat copper coils to get some bass out of those woofers
If you do not have the means to equalize actively and don´t want to destroy a lot of power, you need drivers with a low Fs and a very high Qts. With Qts=2 and Fs=30 Hz you get a natural 6 db rise from 80 to 30 Hz which could compensate for the dipole loss. But you would have practically no rise from 200 to 80 Hz. So this could only help for a pure subwoofer application.And do you think it's possible to do the same with a lot of 10", a little less 12", less 15", 18", or like magnetar: 21"?
Rudolf
Ok, so, to stay in dipole, the best solution is to be in active.
But do you think I can stay with one amp and only do bass boost?
And if yes, one thing I don't like is feedback, so to do an active bass boost, is it possible to do this :
But do you think I can stay with one amp and only do bass boost?
And if yes, one thing I don't like is feedback, so to do an active bass boost, is it possible to do this :
PHP:
sign----+-----buff--------------------------------------Sum-------To power amp
! !
!----+12dB--------filter low pass 6dB------------!
This might do - I have yet to see a sub plateamp with crossover point above 125hz
http://members.dodo.com.au/~gregball/guru_008.htm
http://www.welbornelabs.com/acm.htm
http://members.dodo.com.au/~gregball/guru_008.htm
http://www.welbornelabs.com/acm.htm
Big woofers often have high SPL around 96-97db , but doubt if you really need that, not many fullrange used for dipole go that high
So my guess is that you will be happy with 90-92db
Furthermore you will only need it to be straight to 40hz
To achive that you cut passive around 100hz and then parallel with a condensator with a cheated higher crossoverpoint
This way you cut away some of the unwanted sesitivity around 200hz and get a better FR
Personally I would biamp and use some EQ
My dream driver at the moment could be Alliance 18", but will be too expencive with tax and all
So my guess is that you will be happy with 90-92db
Furthermore you will only need it to be straight to 40hz
To achive that you cut passive around 100hz and then parallel with a condensator with a cheated higher crossoverpoint
This way you cut away some of the unwanted sesitivity around 200hz and get a better FR
Personally I would biamp and use some EQ
My dream driver at the moment could be Alliance 18", but will be too expencive with tax and all
When a high efficiency, high QTS 21" woofer like the Madison is used close to the floor you'll get your 96 db down to 40-45 hz with excellent definition and no biamping. Be sure to use as low loss of network as you can - maybe a low dcr choke and a zobel will get you 95-97 db. In the real world the floor coupling 'boost' works great up to around 500 Hz.
Magnetar said:In the real world the floor coupling 'boost' works great up to around 500 Hz.
Unit to the floor at 500 Hz? Thanks, but no thanks.
Max. 200 Hz with -10 dB or lower.
I've found a driver that can be used in dipole it's a 18inch with this T&S parameter :
97dB
Fs :33Hz
DCR : 6,2R
Xmax : 4mm
Qms : 8,91
Qes : 0,44
Qts : 0,42
Vas : 380,94l
BL : 18,92 T/m
Mms : 138,63g
Ok Qts is a bit too small (from what I read 0,8 is better). Is it posible to increase Mms (138g is not big for a 18") to increase Qts??? or is it better to put a resistor in series??? Or to do nothing?????????
Thanks in advance
Hugues
97dB
Fs :33Hz
DCR : 6,2R
Xmax : 4mm
Qms : 8,91
Qes : 0,44
Qts : 0,42
Vas : 380,94l
BL : 18,92 T/m
Mms : 138,63g
Ok Qts is a bit too small (from what I read 0,8 is better). Is it posible to increase Mms (138g is not big for a 18") to increase Qts??? or is it better to put a resistor in series??? Or to do nothing?????????
Thanks in advance
Hugues
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