Hi!
Has anyone tried new Peerless XXLS woofers in a 3-way? More like a woofer than subwoofer application, perhaps up to 300Hz or so?
At least distributors recommend them and consider them to be truely "extended" XLS serie, also in FR and therefore usable in a multiway systems woofer. But has anyone actually tried them? Pretty expensive mistake to make if they don't work.
I've been considering this "middle-Q" model from their 10" XXLS line. 4 ohm coil, two on each side in small closed cabinet, cross 200-300Hz.
Other possibilities are also under consideration. Scan Speak 25W/8565 and L26 Seas at least. Less displacement (and potential for deep bass) along with larger cabinet requirements (which can be assisted with Linkwitz transform or similar) but would they work better with midbass-upperbass-lowmid area than XXLS?
Personally I'd prefer excellent integration and precise reproduction over SPL. SPL isn't really worth it if more important things don't work...
Thanks !
Jussi
Has anyone tried new Peerless XXLS woofers in a 3-way? More like a woofer than subwoofer application, perhaps up to 300Hz or so?
At least distributors recommend them and consider them to be truely "extended" XLS serie, also in FR and therefore usable in a multiway systems woofer. But has anyone actually tried them? Pretty expensive mistake to make if they don't work.
I've been considering this "middle-Q" model from their 10" XXLS line. 4 ohm coil, two on each side in small closed cabinet, cross 200-300Hz.
Other possibilities are also under consideration. Scan Speak 25W/8565 and L26 Seas at least. Less displacement (and potential for deep bass) along with larger cabinet requirements (which can be assisted with Linkwitz transform or similar) but would they work better with midbass-upperbass-lowmid area than XXLS?
Personally I'd prefer excellent integration and precise reproduction over SPL. SPL isn't really worth it if more important things don't work...
Thanks !
Jussi
Don't know about XXLS, but you're doing exactly what I'm planning here.
So far the most promising woofer to me is the Visaton Visaton TIW250XS . I was thinking of the smaller model, but I ran a few simulations and it seems that this woofer can cope with Linkwitz transform down to 30Hz well. I need to fit the crossover frequency of about 300-500Hz so a response to about 1k is preferable here..
I thought of the Seas L26 too but I came to the conclusion that I don't want to look at that ugly woofer all day long.
Some big Scan-Speak model was also promising (could be the same one you thought of) but those things are really expensive..
You going all active?
So far the most promising woofer to me is the Visaton Visaton TIW250XS . I was thinking of the smaller model, but I ran a few simulations and it seems that this woofer can cope with Linkwitz transform down to 30Hz well. I need to fit the crossover frequency of about 300-500Hz so a response to about 1k is preferable here..
I thought of the Seas L26 too but I came to the conclusion that I don't want to look at that ugly woofer all day long.
Some big Scan-Speak model was also promising (could be the same one you thought of) but those things are really expensive..You going all active?
All active yes. I already have components for MTM using W18E Seas and Dynaudio Esotar. Fitted the tweeter in a waveguide, seems to work.
What mids and tweeters do you have in mind?
So you're selecting drivers prefering their looks? Do you have measured objective data to prove Visaton technically good and better than other candidates? If it mathers..
Well, L26 seems to have good performance and I know those old servant 10" Scans are solid performers but since cross is going to be rather low, 200-300Hz, perhaps I could use heavier woofers and obtain some serious deep bass extension as well. I don't like to play with subwoofers if it isn't absolutely necessary. But only if it can be done without compromisses in midbass-upperbass-lowmid area and integration between bass and mid.
Mids are going to be in acoustic resistance cabinets and according to simulations WMTMW config with 200-250Hz cross should be enough to damp some of those 250Hz and 500Hz floor reflections off and still obtain some advantage of the AR cabinet. Higher cross just has too large range and its overlap area doesn't leave any point to use AR on the mids.
Jussi
What mids and tweeters do you have in mind?
So you're selecting drivers prefering their looks? Do you have measured objective data to prove Visaton technically good and better than other candidates? If it mathers..
Well, L26 seems to have good performance and I know those old servant 10" Scans are solid performers but since cross is going to be rather low, 200-300Hz, perhaps I could use heavier woofers and obtain some serious deep bass extension as well. I don't like to play with subwoofers if it isn't absolutely necessary. But only if it can be done without compromisses in midbass-upperbass-lowmid area and integration between bass and mid.
Mids are going to be in acoustic resistance cabinets and according to simulations WMTMW config with 200-250Hz cross should be enough to damp some of those 250Hz and 500Hz floor reflections off and still obtain some advantage of the AR cabinet. Higher cross just has too large range and its overlap area doesn't leave any point to use AR on the mids.
Jussi
Jussi,
I experimented with my WWMTMWW and found MTMWW image better and sounds better in my set up. When WW is placed near the floor there is also some dB increase that is always to our advantage, ie. saving amplifer power and reduce speaker vibration. If you use 2 x 10' MTMWW may be fine.
I will be checking this thread from time to time as I am redesigning my WWMTMWW. I found the dipole bass to be excellent but would like to have the SPL of a closed box to match the MTM. I have not made up my mind yet. I will be interested in your discussions and results.
Regards,
Bill
I experimented with my WWMTMWW and found MTMWW image better and sounds better in my set up. When WW is placed near the floor there is also some dB increase that is always to our advantage, ie. saving amplifer power and reduce speaker vibration. If you use 2 x 10' MTMWW may be fine.
I will be checking this thread from time to time as I am redesigning my WWMTMWW. I found the dipole bass to be excellent but would like to have the SPL of a closed box to match the MTM. I have not made up my mind yet. I will be interested in your discussions and results.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
Basically the idea of WMTMW is based on simulations and idea of cancelling couple first floor reflections off the game around 250Hz and 500Hz. Naturally WWMTM also has some directivity in vertical plane but it isn't symmetrical to both directions. Both propably assist the MTM with the 500Hz bounce but if I simulated correctly WWMTM has some additional boost below the axis which isn't a good thing since it should be directive at 250Hz.
Of cource there are other aspects. WWMTM would be easier to build, could use heavier cabinet structures and have more stable physical appearance. Less dominant in a room as well I guess. Personally I'd like the Wilson Audio Alex look in config like this... Call me pervert.
I'd like to try the dipolebass solution. WWMTM for example could use two large woofers, 12" or even 15", and perhaps obtain decent impact and SPL capacity but my room and possible positioning doesn't really allow it. It's pretty crusial to place the speakers pretty closely to front wall and it's just deadly for dipole solutions. I did some scetching of 60 degrees turned dipole but it's still 75cm from frontwall and therefore in the way of daily life.
Jussi
Basically the idea of WMTMW is based on simulations and idea of cancelling couple first floor reflections off the game around 250Hz and 500Hz. Naturally WWMTM also has some directivity in vertical plane but it isn't symmetrical to both directions. Both propably assist the MTM with the 500Hz bounce but if I simulated correctly WWMTM has some additional boost below the axis which isn't a good thing since it should be directive at 250Hz.
Of cource there are other aspects. WWMTM would be easier to build, could use heavier cabinet structures and have more stable physical appearance. Less dominant in a room as well I guess. Personally I'd like the Wilson Audio Alex look in config like this... Call me pervert.
I'd like to try the dipolebass solution. WWMTM for example could use two large woofers, 12" or even 15", and perhaps obtain decent impact and SPL capacity but my room and possible positioning doesn't really allow it. It's pretty crusial to place the speakers pretty closely to front wall and it's just deadly for dipole solutions. I did some scetching of 60 degrees turned dipole but it's still 75cm from frontwall and therefore in the way of daily life.
Jussi
Dynaudios top model Evidence Master has pretty intresting concept. WWMTTMWW. I simulated such construction and it seems to be even better in vertical directivity than smaller WMTMW. "WW" model is already about 6dB+ down at 200Hz while "W" version is only 3-4dB down. Both with 2nd order Linkwitz-Riley cross at 200Hz.
But in such construction XXLS woofers are too expensive for me and they propably require too much cabinet space. 8" Nomex cone woofers from Peerless HDS line seem to fit in such app. 15+ litres each in closed environment but they still lack some deep bass potential compared to twin XXLS configuration. Darn.
8" Nomex quad in vented environment can hammer similar performance than twin XXLS in closed cabinets above 20Hz. 24-25 litres 25Hz cabinets for each driver. Better efficiency, more conearea and better impedance for amp as well. Note that 24-25 litres 25Hz doesn't give that good extension with flat response but since my room is pretty small and walls are concrete I estimate some improvement from that sector.
Naturally it rises a question what's the point for such lunacy in small room. Well, personally I'd like to have good sonical performance and as lunatic as WWMTMWW sounds like most of the idea is to minimize room problems to have good performance at sweetspot, high SPL and dynamics capacity is just a bonus.
Jussi
But in such construction XXLS woofers are too expensive for me and they propably require too much cabinet space. 8" Nomex cone woofers from Peerless HDS line seem to fit in such app. 15+ litres each in closed environment but they still lack some deep bass potential compared to twin XXLS configuration. Darn.
8" Nomex quad in vented environment can hammer similar performance than twin XXLS in closed cabinets above 20Hz. 24-25 litres 25Hz cabinets for each driver. Better efficiency, more conearea and better impedance for amp as well. Note that 24-25 litres 25Hz doesn't give that good extension with flat response but since my room is pretty small and walls are concrete I estimate some improvement from that sector.
Naturally it rises a question what's the point for such lunacy in small room. Well, personally I'd like to have good sonical performance and as lunatic as WWMTMWW sounds like most of the idea is to minimize room problems to have good performance at sweetspot, high SPL and dynamics capacity is just a bonus.
Jussi
hi dont use peerles 8' nomex driver for low bas. they can produce anything but the low bass.I was shocked when heard them. and when measure it makes me smile. scan spek 21w8555, scan speak 25w8565, dynaudio, focal, vifa bass drivers and others I tried was far better. strong side of nomex 6-8" is 150-800hz. peerles xxl is out of rule-it is very seriuos deep playing driver from peerless company. I heard only one time at subwoofer aplication and find ir very fine driver- its mooves a lot of air. and at the same it is suitable to reproduce music good. t330 esotar should be good mach in terms of dynamic and power.
Elviukai,
What kind of application was it with HDS drivers? At least response isn't that extended but in active system this can be compensated.
Shape not that many people haven't tried XXLS in a 3-way system, not that much info how they play upperbass-lowmid region.
Looks like it's a battle between configurations. There isn't that much deep bass capable 8" woofers for the WWMTMWW config thought.
Jussi
What kind of application was it with HDS drivers? At least response isn't that extended but in active system this can be compensated.
Shape not that many people haven't tried XXLS in a 3-way system, not that much info how they play upperbass-lowmid region.
Looks like it's a battle between configurations. There isn't that much deep bass capable 8" woofers for the WWMTMWW config thought.
Jussi
Jussi said:
How about Seas L22RN4X/P:
http://www.seas.no/seas_line/woofers/H1208.pdf
It works nicely in small vented enclosures and should provide more bass than any of the 8" HDS.
it was MTM passive. both drivers separate enclosures 30ltr. . in room conditions they started roll of at 40-50hz . also they had problems that spsl at 100-200hz was smaller too. going active you can improove this. I redesign spekers to 2.5 way to fix this. but I felt thay do not have dynamic and low FR solidity. they pretty good to let them go upt yo 600hz with no problems. but they do not handle and reproduce LF. I worked with smaller 6" nomex also and fell very much the same.
there is chalennge to pick up wright sub/woofer to hold up to 300-400hz. you cant take any aliuminium big mooving mass sub. if you take more gentle driver capable to handle up to 500hz you will loose LF mooving air solidity. pretty good felows 4x 258565-01 in total 340liter closed boxes are almost on the same league on mooving air as infinity kappa perfect 12.1 carr sub in 60ltr closed. not speaking about quality here, only physic.
there is chalennge to pick up wright sub/woofer to hold up to 300-400hz. you cant take any aliuminium big mooving mass sub. if you take more gentle driver capable to handle up to 500hz you will loose LF mooving air solidity. pretty good felows 4x 258565-01 in total 340liter closed boxes are almost on the same league on mooving air as infinity kappa perfect 12.1 carr sub in 60ltr closed. not speaking about quality here, only physic.
I'm thinking MTWW or MTMWW and I want to use lightweight paper coned mids - drivers to be tested at the moment are Seas MCA15RCY, MCA12RC and Peerless (Vifa) V-Line PL11MH. I'm not really interested in the rigid (Excel and similar) cones in the midrange.. Tweeters, most likely I'll start with basic Seas line (27TFFC, 27TBFC), Vifa XT25 and if they don't cut it, I'll seek for Hiquphons and maybe the mid-range (9500-9700) Scan-Speaks.
Hehe, not really but in the case of L26 it matters. I've been actually checking out the Seas Excel W26FX too, same parameters (even better probably) and much better looks than the L26.
But I'm probably not going there since the Visatons look technically better to me and my application.Major factors in my interest for Visatons are the nice linear excursion cabability, good looking extension to 1k, no massive cone break-ups. Seem to work well in sealed cabinets too.
I was also thinking of the 10" Peerless SLS woofers, but something's holding me back. I'm sure I could get nice bass out of them with LT but I wonder if the 100-300Hz area can keep up with the bass (even if the datsheet does suggest so). SLS woofers turn up used now and then so I might buy a pair and take a listen..
Your project sounds cool. What x-over you're gonna use? I'm probably building my own.. Amps? Hypex UcD modules interest me (at least as a good start).
this is a peerless xls 8"
http://www.solen.ca/pics/peerless/205swrpic.jpg
it goes down fs is 29hz
or go eton like the avalons 11" with fs of 21hz very fast and detailed they play with a ceramic acouton 3.5" so they can be cut in the 350 region,
http://www.solen.ca/pics/eton/11_581.jpg
have fun!!!
http://www.solen.ca/pics/peerless/205swrpic.jpg
it goes down fs is 29hz
or go eton like the avalons 11" with fs of 21hz very fast and detailed they play with a ceramic acouton 3.5" so they can be cut in the 350 region,
http://www.solen.ca/pics/eton/11_581.jpg
have fun!!!
Landroval,
I've noticed L22. Seas also has very similar CD22 in production. Papercone without phaseplug. Also into very small cabinets.
But I'm not sure about the advantages of the whole deal. Changing low delay closed twin 10" to quad vented 8" or something...
Virtalahde,
How expensive those Visatons are? At least W26 is very expensive (for me). I don't have that much info on Visatons. Measured MHT12 ribbon some time ago and that was a big disappointment. On axis response is very flat but that's pretty much the good news. Off axis behavior isn't stable and it distorts at 90dB SPL pretty badly (several % THD including 4th and 5th harmonics).
I have Behringer DCX crossover standing by as well as couple stereoamps for the mid-treble sections. Have to invest something to drive the bass.
Darn that 10" 4 ohm "mid-Q" XXLS is a double voice coil model. Does anyone know are those Peerless specs from single coil or are coils allready connected in someway and then measure those 4 ohm 1,6mH and so on?
L22, CD22, 25W, XXLS...
Jussi
I've noticed L22. Seas also has very similar CD22 in production. Papercone without phaseplug. Also into very small cabinets.
But I'm not sure about the advantages of the whole deal. Changing low delay closed twin 10" to quad vented 8" or something...
Virtalahde,
How expensive those Visatons are? At least W26 is very expensive (for me). I don't have that much info on Visatons. Measured MHT12 ribbon some time ago and that was a big disappointment. On axis response is very flat but that's pretty much the good news. Off axis behavior isn't stable and it distorts at 90dB SPL pretty badly (several % THD including 4th and 5th harmonics).
I have Behringer DCX crossover standing by as well as couple stereoamps for the mid-treble sections. Have to invest something to drive the bass.
Darn that 10" 4 ohm "mid-Q" XXLS is a double voice coil model. Does anyone know are those Peerless specs from single coil or are coils allready connected in someway and then measure those 4 ohm 1,6mH and so on?
L22, CD22, 25W, XXLS...
Jussi
Jussi,
A Dutch place called BMM electronics seems to sell the 10" Visatons for 124€ without VAT, and the 8" model for whopping ~75€.
TIW250XS - BMM Electronics
TIW200XS - BMM Electronics
The 8" model is interesting too, gives f3 of under 50Hz in a 0.707 closed box. If you're going for WWMTMWW, four of these 8" would probably work very well.
Hifisound has Visaton woofers too, but much higher prices. TIW250XS would be 212€..
I asked about the 8" model at the Visaton forum:
Topic: TIW200XC quality from 500Hz down?
These guys were pretty confirmed it's a solid player. I have since turned to the 10" model since LT would work way better..
The TIW250XS has been used in various Visaton kits:
The VOX253 has a x-over frequency of 200Hz and reviews look good (as they always do ) . Though I think a side-firing woofer crossed that high is pretty odd..
If you get excited about Visatons, we should probably organize a small group buy? I'm broke right now and it'll be late in the autumn I'm even thinking this - I'm moving my business to Helsinki and have lots of things to do..
A Dutch place called BMM electronics seems to sell the 10" Visatons for 124€ without VAT, and the 8" model for whopping ~75€.
TIW250XS - BMM Electronics
TIW200XS - BMM Electronics
The 8" model is interesting too, gives f3 of under 50Hz in a 0.707 closed box. If you're going for WWMTMWW, four of these 8" would probably work very well.
Hifisound has Visaton woofers too, but much higher prices. TIW250XS would be 212€..
I asked about the 8" model at the Visaton forum:
Topic: TIW200XC quality from 500Hz down?
These guys were pretty confirmed it's a solid player. I have since turned to the 10" model since LT would work way better..
The TIW250XS has been used in various Visaton kits:
The VOX253 has a x-over frequency of 200Hz and reviews look good (as they always do
) . Though I think a side-firing woofer crossed that high is pretty odd..If you get excited about Visatons, we should probably organize a small group buy?
I'm broke right now and it'll be late in the autumn I'm even thinking this - I'm moving my business to Helsinki and have lots of things to do..
Virtalahde,
Sorry, not intrested in Visaton. Don't look that promissing to me and while their rather expensive and subjectively "excellent" ribbon tweeter showed to be a total lowpoint I don't want to take such risks. Naturally "good" sound is what mathers but I still don't want to pay a lot of money for drivers that are beat with 1/10th of cost driver in simple measurements.
Jussi
Sorry, not intrested in Visaton. Don't look that promissing to me and while their rather expensive and subjectively "excellent" ribbon tweeter showed to be a total lowpoint I don't want to take such risks. Naturally "good" sound is what mathers but I still don't want to pay a lot of money for drivers that are beat with 1/10th of cost driver in simple measurements.
Jussi
From my measurements, http://www.gattiweb.com/samson_construction.html and also the manufacturers FR specs, the maximum usuable frequency of the 10" XXLS (830843) is about 500Hz, before things start to get untidy. It really is called a subwoofer for a reason. So a crossover point at 300Hz is cutting it fine, especially when you consider this is the area where a huge amount of musical information is found.
A Scanspeak 25W8565 (or 2) looks like a much better proposition, unless you're prepared to lower the crossover point to 200Hz.
A Scanspeak 25W8565 (or 2) looks like a much better proposition, unless you're prepared to lower the crossover point to 200Hz.
WWMTMWW
A very interesting WWMTMWW is the Snell XA Reference Tower
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/556/index.html
http://www.snellacoustics.com/index.php?module=product_detail&productID=17
Good cheap 8” drivers??
DAYTON RS225S-8 8" REFERENCE SERIES
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366
A very interesting WWMTMWW is the Snell XA Reference Tower
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/556/index.html
http://www.snellacoustics.com/index.php?module=product_detail&productID=17
Good cheap 8” drivers??
DAYTON RS225S-8 8" REFERENCE SERIES
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366
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