split from here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=911471#post911471Luckily I do have a large garage with a DIY spray booth (read hanging plastic sheets). I put the electric heaters on full and gave it about an hour before the next coat. The second and third coats then went on fine.
This is the result (and I've just emailed you about my hair pulling):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These won't be active. It's just there to show the extent of the orange peel (LM4780 with no home atm).
The short story is that I sprayed the basecoats on too thick (thinned 2:1) which I then sanded down, left for a month, and applied some more coats this time thinned 1:1 as recommended. The glossiness is good and orange peel down to a minimum now, but I'll shoot the next person to tell me I need to sand some more...
The short story is that I sprayed the basecoats on too thick (thinned 2:1) which I then sanded down, left for a month, and applied some more coats this time thinned 1:1 as recommended. The glossiness is good and orange peel down to a minimum now, but I'll shoot the next person to tell me I need to sand some more...
Don't dispair Vikash, know exactly what you're going through.
The finish will look good if you just use compound and buff the finish you've shown in the photo above. However, the best finish is always obtained with sanding flat though. It just depends how close to 'perfect' is must be. I've learned myself that its next to impossible to get perfectly flat in the end you just have to settle for what looks pleasing. Perhaps your trying to get too close to perfect?
You've seen these before but this time if you look closely at the reflections there's clearly quite a bit of distortion to the images, these a tiny imperfections in the surface that are virtually impossible to eliminate whilst staying sane, I've tried but always failed and in the end have just decided to go with something that looks pleasing:
What I'm getting at is that just buffing the slightly orange peeled finished you have in your photo will results in a high gloss image that simply accentuates these imperfections - I sanded and it the image still isn't flat, so without that step its worse still. However, it will still have the initial wow factor of gloss and will look impressive but the image will be distorted.
On the other hand, its near impossible (for me anyway) to get it perfectly flat. So there's clearly compromise involved and I think thats down to what your looking for.
If your thinking of trying to sand again:
I use this palm sander:
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=111887&
Its ideal because of its extremely low transfered vibration(it doesn't pummel the finish) and small orbit pattern(1.5mm). Its also very light and the clamp retention rather than the nasty velcro stuff allows for quality sandpaper such as the silicone carbide types from 3M.
Use only 2000 grit wet sanding on the laquer. I hear folks suggesting to start from 600 and progress through to finer grades - don't both, you'll need a finish thats around 1mm thick to pull it off and remove virtually all the scratches left from sanding with 600 grit. Best thing is to have a good finish when you come to the clearcoat and use ultrafine papers and cutting compound.
How many clearcoats are you putting down BTW? You need quite a few thickish coats (7+) if your wanting to sand and definitely use a palm sander rather than hand sanding the finish.
I'm spraying some stuff up later this week, if you like I can take a load of photo's to detail the process I go through in a step by step manner. I can also do the same for the sanding flat and final finishing part?
The finish will look good if you just use compound and buff the finish you've shown in the photo above. However, the best finish is always obtained with sanding flat though. It just depends how close to 'perfect' is must be. I've learned myself that its next to impossible to get perfectly flat in the end you just have to settle for what looks pleasing. Perhaps your trying to get too close to perfect?
You've seen these before but this time if you look closely at the reflections there's clearly quite a bit of distortion to the images, these a tiny imperfections in the surface that are virtually impossible to eliminate whilst staying sane, I've tried but always failed and in the end have just decided to go with something that looks pleasing:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What I'm getting at is that just buffing the slightly orange peeled finished you have in your photo will results in a high gloss image that simply accentuates these imperfections - I sanded and it the image still isn't flat, so without that step its worse still. However, it will still have the initial wow factor of gloss and will look impressive but the image will be distorted.
On the other hand, its near impossible (for me anyway) to get it perfectly flat. So there's clearly compromise involved and I think thats down to what your looking for.
If your thinking of trying to sand again:
I use this palm sander:
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=111887&
Its ideal because of its extremely low transfered vibration(it doesn't pummel the finish) and small orbit pattern(1.5mm). Its also very light and the clamp retention rather than the nasty velcro stuff allows for quality sandpaper such as the silicone carbide types from 3M.
Use only 2000 grit wet sanding on the laquer. I hear folks suggesting to start from 600 and progress through to finer grades - don't both, you'll need a finish thats around 1mm thick to pull it off and remove virtually all the scratches left from sanding with 600 grit. Best thing is to have a good finish when you come to the clearcoat and use ultrafine papers and cutting compound.
How many clearcoats are you putting down BTW? You need quite a few thickish coats (7+) if your wanting to sand and definitely use a palm sander rather than hand sanding the finish.
I'm spraying some stuff up later this week, if you like I can take a load of photo's to detail the process I go through in a step by step manner. I can also do the same for the sanding flat and final finishing part?
An image diary of the sanding and finishing would be fantastic - for many of us - perhaps I could even put it up as a tutorial on madaboutsound.
There are no clearcoats. The guy over at paints4u said it wasn't required neccessarily for what I was trying to achieve. I'm happy with the gloss and depth of the finish so far. So in a word, I wasn't planning on clearcoating it.
Remember this is my first ever effort at spraying so I'm trying (and failing) to keep the costs and time spent to a minimum whilst still aiming for somewhere in the success ballpark (I wish I had your patience for finishing).
There are no clearcoats. The guy over at paints4u said it wasn't required neccessarily for what I was trying to achieve. I'm happy with the gloss and depth of the finish so far. So in a word, I wasn't planning on clearcoating it.
Remember this is my first ever effort at spraying so I'm trying (and failing) to keep the costs and time spent to a minimum whilst still aiming for somewhere in the success ballpark (I wish I had your patience for finishing).
Vikash said:
Ah, I see.
I assume your using the Rage Brilliant Black then?
When you use a clearcoat you get a completely different kind of gloss compared to using just basecoats and buffing out. The clearcoat provides a 'wet' look to the finish and has more shine, contrast and image depth that's just not possible without it. Don't feel bad, because I've tried the same thing your doing - the Rage Brilliant Black isn't meant to be sanded, I'm sure you noticed that is clogs sandpaper up very quickly even with wet sanding. Its a tough finish that doesn't like sanding and produces poor results if you do. Clearcoat on the other hand is easy to sand, buff and wax - its made for it.
Sorry, I feel like someone that just told everyone at a party to keep the noise down. I'm not trying to put down anything you've done so far but really want to help you get the best out of what you've got so far.
Without that clearcoat your far better off leaving it as is. I'm really not sure why the guy at paints4u recommended you this method and I've always found them extremely knowledgable but in this case he is plain wrong.
I'd highly recommend applying the clearcoat and I'll detail everything from the priming stage onwards with a step by step photo diary. I really hope you give it a go because I know your more than talented enough to pull it off and that about you not having enough patience is complete rubbish
I've seen your amp projects on your website and I couldn't pull off that level of metal working quality so I know you can do the paint thing. Its just a matter of getting the technique down and once you've got that, you'll be doing it with your eyes closed in the space of a few weeks for even larger cabinets.
I can hear the Rocky bells ringing...
That sander is £45 inc VAT & delivery from Axminster. Might have to get it...
It's not the Rage stuff, but standard cellulose: http://www.paints4u.com/productsbyC...Selection=22&SubCategoryID=33&Subselection=3.
It was picked to go with the antibloom thinner and also the primer so they decided it was probably the most economical and safe (ie not 2pk) way forward. They were a bit miffed as to why I'd chosen the Rage basecoat when they looked at my cart and called me up to discuss - so I was quite impressed with them too
That sander is £45 inc VAT & delivery from Axminster. Might have to get it...
It's not the Rage stuff, but standard cellulose: http://www.paints4u.com/productsbyC...Selection=22&SubCategoryID=33&Subselection=3.
It was picked to go with the antibloom thinner and also the primer so they decided it was probably the most economical and safe (ie not 2pk) way forward. They were a bit miffed as to why I'd chosen the Rage basecoat when they looked at my cart and called me up to discuss - so I was quite impressed with them too
My bad Vikash, I'm giving it mixed signals here - ooer
I used 2k clearcoat with the Rage silver and black basecoats. Rage themselves don't recommend using 1k clearcoats with their basecoats unfortunately. So the knowledgable chaps at paints4u were completely right in the advice that they gave you and I am completely wrong - must be a first
Ignore most of what I've said already and carry on with the way you've been recommended. Again sorry for the confusion but I should have asked rather than assumed what type of paints you were using.
Unfortunately this does mean that I'm unfamiliar with how to go about properly finishing what your using to spray with. Its surprising just how much different brands vary how you go about finishing them. I've found a system of paints that works for me and I stick with these at all times because I know the results are repeatable. What I do clearly isn't applicable in this case since your using a completely different finishing system.
The best thing to do is give the real experts(paints4u) another call and get them to detail how you go about the whole thing.
I used 2k clearcoat with the Rage silver and black basecoats. Rage themselves don't recommend using 1k clearcoats with their basecoats unfortunately. So the knowledgable chaps at paints4u were completely right in the advice that they gave you and I am completely wrong - must be a first
Ignore most of what I've said already and carry on with the way you've been recommended. Again sorry for the confusion but I should have asked rather than assumed what type of paints you were using.
Unfortunately this does mean that I'm unfamiliar with how to go about properly finishing what your using to spray with. Its surprising just how much different brands vary how you go about finishing them. I've found a system of paints that works for me and I stick with these at all times because I know the results are repeatable. What I do clearly isn't applicable in this case since your using a completely different finishing system.
The best thing to do is give the real experts(paints4u) another call and get them to detail how you go about the whole thing.
Keep at it Vikash. At least you don't have any joints or edges showing through.
Ant, just wondering how come you chose a palm sander rather than a 1/3 sheet one? For large areas like you had surely a larger sander would have been better?
Have any of you guys tried International MDF primer with automotive paints on top, or are you using the wood hardener and normal automotive primer method?
Ant, just wondering how come you chose a palm sander rather than a 1/3 sheet one? For large areas like you had surely a larger sander would have been better?
Have any of you guys tried International MDF primer with automotive paints on top, or are you using the wood hardener and normal automotive primer method?
Vikash said:I'll put a call in later today. However, don't let that deter you from taking comprehensive pics of the process. Some things will be much clearer in pictures.
PS how much is shipping for that AV15?
V
I'll still do the photo thing as it will probably have some sort of value.
Since its you asking about the AV15, consider the P&P included in the asking the price.
richie00boy said:
He's wisely chosen a cool way to disguise the joint by putting them on the bevel angle. Its what I do and it works a treat. Tony Gee was the first I saw using it and I just copied him. Simple idea but it works great.
I find that the palm sander is much lighter and offers a nicer finish than the 1/3 sheet sander I've got. I did buy one of those Bosch Xcel 1/3 sheet sander from B&Q but I'm so accustom to the Makita that I refuse to use it. Its funny how you tend to get use to certain tools even if there's a better/easier way. Another example would be that I nearly always use my £25 cheap as hell router over the big 1650w thing, it feels much better and lighter to me so allows me more control.
I've tried the International MDF primer. Its not very good TBH, at least for what I trying but its better than nothing. I used it last year and it caused a reaction with the automotive finished that I was using at the time making them take weeks to dry properly. I now use the hardener stuff we've talked about and then just automotive cellulose primer, although I've just tried out Upol 2k primer and the results are shown in the photo's. Personally I can't see any difference in the finish quality. So there's nothing in it between 2k and 1k primer for use on MDF.
I've tried MDF primer and found that being water based it raises the surface 'grain', which takes lots of coats of paint to smooth out. I now use Briwax cellulose sanding sealer. A generous coat on MDF allowed to dry for 15 minutes and then rubbed down with 0000 steel wool makes an excellent base for spray painting.
Some more hand sanding today (straight to 1200 grit), and some more frustration at rubbing too much off in some places so I decided to just try rubbing it out with automotive rubbing compound and a 12v car polisher to get an idea of what it might look like eventually.
Boy am I glad I did this. It's the incentive I needed to carry on with it.
Boy am I glad I did this. It's the incentive I needed to carry on with it.
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