BIG LOUD 3 way?

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as ive gone the fullrange route, ive noticed that id like something big and loud, thogh not as hi fi as my fullrange system. A recent project inspired me to build a very 70s like 3 way deisgn, very loud, very large, lots of bas, big drivers, and most EFINATELY a 3 way. my friend also just set up a studio in his basement, but they want some REALLY loud speakers that can handle high playback volumes. dont worry, ill wear earplugs.

So i got my thinking cap on, and picked out these drivers!

woofer: pyle PPA15
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=292-218

this will be crossed to a mid at 500hz ish, cause this keeps high freq out of the woofer, and still allows alot of protection on the midrange for loud playback.

midrange driver: im stuck between two, but leaning more toward the 6" cause i dont think that a 5 1/4 mid can keep up with a 15" woofer
so i chose either the 5" dayton
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-010
or the 6"
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-015

since high powerhandling is a priority(200 wattsish thermally id hope) ill cross one of these to a tweeter at about 5khz

the tweeters arent THAT important, theyre only doing the top 2 octaves, so i chose some cheapish bullet tweeters as used in the podzuma, which should have plenty powrhandling if i cross them that high with maybe just a first order.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-102

so will these sound good do you think? what am i doing right what am i doing wrong? if youre wondering what sound im aiming for...think one of those old 3 way JBLs with the 12" accordian surround woofer. i trid to do some crossover work myself, and managed to work out a 2nd order linkwitz between the woofer and mid at 500hz.

tell me if this is right, ~2uF cap in paralell with woofer, and a .5mH inductor in series with the woofer, and the opposite this configuration for the mid.

these will also be used for partys here and there.

the crossover from mid to tweeter i am unsure about, if someone could link me to a calculator or whatnot, then that would help.

i am aware i will need to pad down the mid and the tweeter, but IIRC thats just a reisitor network before the crossover.

so what do you guys think? i know this is the billionth time ive aksed a similar question, but these i will listen to on a semiregular basis, so i want them to sound good.


ANY INPUT IS WELCOME!
 
after looking at some graphs, crossing at 4khz for the 6" mid would probably be a more reasonable option.

and i still dont feel like im being clear about what kind of SQ goals im setting here. these are not goign to be audiophile speakers, at all. the quality im looking for is like what you get with those 300$ floorstanders at bestbuy. This isnt meant to do a disspaearing act, its not meant to be flat even and neutral, its just meant to have alot of bas kick, and good extension on both ends. if the highs are a bit fizzy so be it, if the bass is boomy, thats ok. not to mention be effing loud.
 
Sorry to bust your bubble but 90db isn't loud for a woofer. You'll quickly lose 3 to 6 db due to baffle step loss. Depending how far from a wall these speakers will be placed.
Also a Qts. of .67 means it's suited for an infinite baffle or a very large sealed box.
Look for woofers with a 99db rating and a Qts. of .55 or lower.
 
99db?! the onyl speaker i know hat are THAT efficient, are guitar speakers, which would not do for this application.

im padding the mid and tweeter down to 90db. theres another good woofer candidate with a sensitivity of 94db, would this do?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-384

theyll usually be placed a foot or possibly two(at a party) from a wall.

also a 90db woofer can be loud if you throw lots of watts at it, its just not efficient(i sure you know this but im pointing it out. These dont have to be that efficient, but 89db is my lower limit)

do i have to move up to another woofer for this project to work out?
 
That's a bit better, but it'll have that Classic 70-80 hz boom. A bigger box and some stuffing might tame it.
This is a sealed box that'll be about 18" wide, 42" tall and 14" deep.
Just about right for a 15" three way.
 

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Hmm people beat me to it. Yea you're woofer doesn't have nearly as much sensitivity, look for a woofer atleast in the 96-99 db. range.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-175

This looks cool but you'll probably need a huge cabinet.

Or maybe 2 of these:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-105

What's your budget? I'm figuring its pretty low since these are supposed to imitate classic 3-ways.

The 6in dayton midranges seem nice. Maybe for higher sensitivity you can use two per speaker in an MTM arrangement and then use whatever compression driver and horn of your choice. Should handle lots of power and play loud.
 
For reliable high SPL with low enough distortion,a high sensitivity is required.

how loud your 'loud' is,depends on you. Also room size,and approximate amplifier power rating.

What you require is probably a 2 or 3way system
1" compression driver
~6" cone driver on conical/tractix horn
12" or 15" bass reflex

eg
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x15

http://www.geocities.com/adrian_mack/homepage.html
Behringer make low end - moderate versions of these.

On second thoughts,a large format COAX might do the job also,if you have seperate sub.
 
would the goldwood suffice in sensitivity? i guess i could go for the pioneer too, but it doesnt look like it can take very much abuse. The max power these will ever see will probably be in the realm of 150 watts, MAYBE 200 watts depending on how things pan out. But i doubti would run them flat out at 200 watts.

a sensitivity of 90db is fine.

also i plan to give these a bit of a low end hump. I plan to do a ported design as well.

i think thelargest baffle i could go for would be 18"x36", a foot(maybe a couple inches more) of depth. so i have alot of space to work with.

id rather not go out of the low 230s(USD) area(for drivers and crossover).

any input on the crossovers?
 
cal! unfortunately my DIYAUDIO email is not correct, if you would send it again but to

stc4thotsATgmailDOTcom

it woudl be much appreciated, i know your patience must be wearing thin with me on this subject :), if they still made them id jsut get some selenium coaxes but regretably they dont :(.
 
Yea the goldwoods actually look pretty nice and the price isn't bad. The FS is low enough. (many pro woofers suffer in having a high FS) Since too much sensitivity isn't a concern, you can pad the mid and tweeter maybe 5-6Db and get some baffle step compensation or a midbass hump if placed near the walls. The only downside is a massive enclosure if you use the 15in goldwood.
 
OKOK i got is worked out, with two 12 goldwoods per side, thats 99.6db sensitivity! and it works out to low 200s price wise including the crossover network between the bass and the mid driver! box wise i can model them and get the kind of response i want, and a pair of 12s should have more surface area than a single 15.

heres the woofer im talking about, two of them per speaker works out to 99.6 db!

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-382

so that should solve my baffle step problem. With that much sensitivity, how much will i have to pad down the mid and the tweeter?

also i was thinking of just putting a 2nd order linkwitz low pass on the mid at 4khz, and then just put a first order on the tweeter? do i need a second order for powerhandling?
 
When I was asking about a similar project, the Goldwoods were offered along with other drivers.

Months ago, I finished semi-pa/semi-home loudspeakers using a Dayton tweeter and 2 Dayton Classic 12's per box. TMM design. I'm using a 2nd order/ 12db crossover w/ a 2,000hz x-over point. Sensitivity comes out around 96db I think. These things are loud and have been used in several weddings and parties.

If those Goldwoods give you about 99db, you should have even better results.

Please remember to post your results.
 
You should pad down the mid and tweeter anywhere from 6-3dB it really depends on what you like and tweaking it by ear. Have you modeled the woofer, how low does it go? It seems that it can't go down to the very last octave, but you should get quite a bit of tactile bass anyway.
 
tactile bass is more improtant than low bass for this application, ive modelled the drivers as well.

in a 10 cu ft box, ported to 40hz IIRC(via two 6.5" sonotube ports:devilr: ) it gets an f3 of around 40-45hz(adequate for my application).

but something that is worrying me, according to win ISD the goldwoods(12 in) are only 94db sensitive, not 96 :S.

wow this stuff is tricky. but going by what people have said before, this looks doable. One guy said that i should plan for 3 to 6db sensitivity loss becuase of baffle step.

so with two goldwoods, id have 97db efficiency before baffle step, and 91 after, so id need to pad the mid down to 91db, and the tweeter to the same, and then i would have 91db efficiency which is more than enough(i can pad down another 2db if i need too, though id rather not) and after some more consideration, i realised that these will be either against a wall, or about 10 inches out from the rear.

the cabinet is HUGE but doable. 46x18x20(inches) internal gets me to 9.5 feet, which is close enough for my purposes.

also, i plan for these speakers to be somewhat "upgradeable". I plan to swap out the bullet tweeters, for proper compression drivers in a couple of months when i have more cash. i might even try that whole conical horn thing i was linked to. This isnt for extreme SPL PA use. Itll be for when i wanna get rowdy in my room and or basement, itll get carted to friends houses for partys(where ill prolly pop em in corners) and itll get carted to my friends basement when we record and mix stuff.

also, the partys they would be at would be the type of partys with myabe 20 or 30 kids, not big, the kind that you throw in an average sized basement.

i get this feeling like people dont quite get where im coming from with these.

if this is all good and im on the right track for driver selection, the only remaining problem is crossovers!

also with all this knowledge in baffle step, how the HELL do my energy c-1s have tiny baffles, 5 1/4" midbasses and still manage 89db sensitivity?!
 
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