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Old 30th June 2006, 06:36 PM   #101
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I know NUUK asked about the BK Electronics amplifiers, and they didn't get much of a rave, the comments were about small transformers small caps and bent metal for heat sinks.

I know nothing about the design but I have seen the MF100 ..OK it has a bent piece of metal for the heat sink but for that money do you really expect a hefty block bolted on..The angled bit of alloy is quiet thick and it's coupled to a much larger plate assuming this will be mounted in a metal chassis is that not enough.?

I know the amp module uses a 160VA transformer and a pair of 10,000uF caps on the supply, output devices are BUZ900 BUZ905 are these not specifically designed for audio use.

Can someone throw a little light on these modules why they may not make a decent "HiFi" maybe with some upgrades.
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Old 30th June 2006, 07:10 PM   #102
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Default Great topic

I once owned a Yamaha P2201 and used it as a DJ with a bunch of other amps and speakers. The next day after the gig I always hooked it back up to my home Hi FI system, it just sounded so clean and good. I loved that amp and so did all of my pals when they heard it in my home. Everybody was surprised.

A good PA or Pro amp is a good amp. A good home HiFi amp is a good amp. The only two trends that force a major difference are: A) Pro audio should be light, compact and powerful B) Home Hi Fi may be targeted at audiophiles, therefore something exotic may be in the recipe.

Other than that, all other products overlap each other. Bryston is a classic example: noted as a Hi Fi maker of great standards and often found in recording studios for audio and broadcast. A good amp is a good amp.

“Pro amps are linear, it's lack of detail and finesse that is the issue.”

That statement is pure bunk. Perhaps the detail and finesse of the enclosure but that’s about it.

Great topic!

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Old 30th June 2006, 08:53 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteM
I know NUUK asked about the BK Electronics amplifiers, and they didn't get much of a rave, the comments were about small transformers small caps and bent metal for heat sinks.

I know nothing about the design but I have seen the MF100 ..OK it has a bent piece of metal for the heat sink but for that money do you really expect a hefty block bolted on..The angled bit of alloy is quiet thick and it's coupled to a much larger plate assuming this will be mounted in a metal chassis is that not enough.?

I know the amp module uses a 160VA transformer and a pair of 10,000uF caps on the supply, output devices are BUZ900 BUZ905 are these not specifically designed for audio use.

Can someone throw a little light on these modules why they may not make a decent "HiFi" maybe with some upgrades.
Well I actually have a MF100. I don't know where you read the transformer is 160VA but it's not in my opinion, lucky to be 100VA. The PSU caps are 4700uF.

It's not a bad amp and for the money they are surprisingly well built. The topology is the classic old Hitachi data book circuit with a couple of worthwhile tweaks like CCS on the diff pair.

I don't think the comment on the BK module range was aimed at knocking them down really, just that in the realm of real pro gear where rated power levels are expected to be sustained, these fall down. I'm sure sound quality when used within their limits is excellent.
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Old 30th June 2006, 09:04 PM   #104
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Hi Richie00boy

Thanks for the heads up I am sure the Tx was 160VA but it was a few years back,I may of got condused with NUUKS amp that has the 10,000uF caps.

Anyway thanks for the info.
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Old 30th June 2006, 09:24 PM   #105
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"Pro amps are linear, it's lack of detail and finesse that is the issue."

A linear amp cannot fail to reproduce the detail in the program material.
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Old 30th June 2006, 09:52 PM   #106
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Well, a lot of posts this afternoon whilst I was off listening to pro amps!

Pete, it may have been my comments you misinterpreted. I wasn't knocking the sound of the BKs at all, as Richie was saying, I think they are great for the money, but nowhere near robust enough for the road.

There are a lot of misconceptions here. Pro amps are just like hifi amps. No, before you flame, hear me out. There are good amps and bad amps. There are overpriced monsters that have a mystical reputation, and there are budget bargains that sound way better than they should. There are amps voiced to sound pleasing to a particular audience, or to a particular designer. There are good solid brands that will never be rated as the very best, but do a more than adequate job 99% of the time. Sound familiar?

The only real difference is that the Pro market is much more Darwinian than the home market. Ill performing product gets dumped very quickly, as people who make their living from it have to get rid of it if sounds bad or is unreliable, so the general state of the art is much more advanced than in home audio. Of course, this is not of much interest to those who are in love with the past.

What it comes down to in a nutshell, is that all amps are unique. We should be judging them on performance, not on their heritage. Our primary consideration should be using the right amp that will sound good and drive the load we require, not what market the amp is aimed at. If you harbour a closed mind, you're the only one that will lose out.
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Old 30th June 2006, 09:54 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinkmouse
25 years ago, when the industry was still developing, I think you were right. Now, you are absolutely wrong.
Sorry Mouse, I disagree. And my opinion comes from talking to the guys who actually design the amps, as well as designers of other pro gear - audio and video.

Of course pro amps sound good, they have to sound good to sell. But 1st in my book as an audio contractor is that the damn thing work. If it breaks on the job it doesn't matter how good it sounds, you're screwed. If a line or brand of amps leaves you up the creek a few times, you aren't going to buy that amp any more. Pro gear needs to be "Bullet proof."


Of course amp companies audition their gear. And they are proud of the sound, too. As they should be - a lot of these amps sound really good. Sound quality is very important to the pro market, but it is not priority number one. Because so many amps DO sound alike, buying one that fits your system and needs is where the choice comes in.

I've worked with plenty of guys who are audio engineers but NOT Hi-FI enthusiasts who actual like the sound of Hi-Fi amps, but would never used them for work, they just wouldn't hold up. Pro gear will, that's what is important.
(Caveat. I was never a studio engineer, so roadworthiness may not be a big deal to those guys, I can't say).

Despite what others here have said, I have used Pro amps in my home system, what audio engineer hasn't? I also know many other guys who have, some with systems much better than anything I've ever had. The pro amps always seemed a bit "low res" to me. At least in the mids and highs.

I don't you guys to think I hate Pro Amps, not at all! There are some darn good ones out there that I would happy to use. But for home use, with sensitive speakers, so called "Hi-Fi" amps usually sound better to me.

Not quite sure why this thread is in the "Loudspeaker" forum, but here we are, talking amps.

I'm open minded. I would LOVE to hear an ABX test of good Pro Amps Vs. Hi-Fi amps on a home system. We might find some real gems. And that would be a good thing.
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Old 30th June 2006, 09:56 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by noah katz
A linear amp cannot fail to reproduce the detail in the program material.
Not sure what you mean there, Noah. Can you explain?
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Old 30th June 2006, 10:03 PM   #109
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The best way to approach the amplifier issue is to
compare product 'A' vs. product 'B'.

It's not wise to compare 'home amp' vs. 'car amp' vs. 'proamp'.

Lets compare the real amps in question and then form
conclusions on those models only.

There are known good pro audio vendors with great
amplifiers. But, I'm sure if you look hard we can find
product that are designed poorly. Either way you can't
stereotype these audio industries and make generalizations.

I use proamps in a home because I can get the same performance as a home amplifier for alot ess money.
If I buy these amps used, they are a bargain.

The drawback is that proamps typically have fans because the
'RU' chassis limitations forces the designer to create an amplifier
with less heatsinking, but to offset this situation they install fans
to get proper cooling.

I also prefer proamps because they have signal processing,
adjustable gain controls, clipping limiter option with clipping
display, and protection circuits.

If money is no object, just buy what you want to make
you happy, but remember that if you are on a budget,
don't feel bad because you think you aren't getting the
best sound because you didn't spend $20k on the esoteric
home amp, you are not missing any boat my friends.
If you do use proamps, buy from a reputable manufacturer
who has a reputation for making a quality product.
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Old 30th June 2006, 10:06 PM   #110
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And my opinion comes from talking to the guys who actually design the amps, as well as designers of other pro gear - audio and video.

Being a designers doesn't automatically make you
immune from audio voodoo. I can show you some John
Curl posts about amplifier sonics that is 100% voodoo.

The best way to learn about this is to take this path.

1. Study electronics
2. Study science
3. Study amplifier design
4. Study 'human perception of sound quality'.

Most designers fail to take course #4, that last course
is very important if you want to be successful.
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