Thank you very much Zaph!
I think there is enough info there where anyone wanting to fiddle about with this driver should be satisfied.
It would be interesting to have at least one (or more) design at every DIY event where this driver is used just to see what folks come up with. All in good fun of course. Isn't this why most of us got into the hobby in the first place?
For $40-$50 its relatively cheap thrills. It would be nice if it were sold abroad to make it available to all.
cheers,
AJ
I think there is enough info there where anyone wanting to fiddle about with this driver should be satisfied.
It would be interesting to have at least one (or more) design at every DIY event where this driver is used just to see what folks come up with. All in good fun of course. Isn't this why most of us got into the hobby in the first place?
For $40-$50 its relatively cheap thrills. It would be nice if it were sold abroad to make it available to all.
cheers,
AJ
Has anyone given any thought to modifying the crossover on these Polks?
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3292811?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
Not sure if it's even worth the time, but it could be.
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3292811?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
Not sure if it's even worth the time, but it could be.
I own R15, R20 and R30s. I say don't even bother with it. The tweeter on them is HORRIBLE. Fs in the 2.5khz range and with the woofer breaking up starting at 2khz the two sound quite attrocious (this is for the R20s, I've never actually measured the R15s however, they do not so audibly better. The tweeter is the same for the R15 as the R20 and 30s).
Another option?
Well, here you go getting me interested in cheap speakers again. I spent $90 for two pair of the NS-B2111's. The one pair appears to be a return/rebox so I suspect it has a few hours of play on it. The other pair is brand new from its appearance. Even still, neither pair is broken in to any extent so far. However, for less than $100 I would suggest anyone interested in this speaker should try a stacked pair. Drivers at the center and ports at the top and bottom. This places the drivers a bit farther apart than I would think is optimum, but for less than $100 you sacrifice the word "optimum".
Then, after you've listened to the two pairs stacked together, try them as boxed dipoles. Place them back to back with each speaker enclosure firing into a different half of the room. So far, that's my preference.
You'll gain a few dB's with the second set over and above the 90dB spec'd sensivity and, depending on your amp and how you make the connection, you could lower the impedance enough to pick up a bit more power output from your amplifier. As of now I'm thinking this might be a good combination with the little $30 Sonic Impact T amp (or the similar Tripath based Italian Autocostriure chip amp; http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/47077/209464.html) running the two pairs at four Ohms to extract the "full" 15 watts per channel from the amp. For a total of $120 this should be a pretty good set up judging by what I'm hearing so far. Add in a $110 Sony SACD player and this would pass quite well for a dorm system.
The speakers are not loaded with detail and they have some resonance problems that need to be addressed, but overall they're not bad. (Tim's suggestion to check the DIY forum is worth the trip.) And doubled they could make a great HT system for cheap bucks.
The comment was made on the forum that the speakers have a wandering impedance load. But no mention was made of the actual swing the speaker takes. Does anyone have any idea just how severe the impedance and phase angle of this speaker is? So far I've just had them connected to my McIntosh tubes and they're a bit bloated in the bottom but this passes as upright bass "woodiness" on the right recordings. Maybe it's time to shove two pairs of socks in the ports. OK, that's the next experiment.
Anyone willing to part with $90, let me know what you think of stacked or dipole Insignias.
Well, here you go getting me interested in cheap speakers again. I spent $90 for two pair of the NS-B2111's. The one pair appears to be a return/rebox so I suspect it has a few hours of play on it. The other pair is brand new from its appearance. Even still, neither pair is broken in to any extent so far. However, for less than $100 I would suggest anyone interested in this speaker should try a stacked pair. Drivers at the center and ports at the top and bottom. This places the drivers a bit farther apart than I would think is optimum, but for less than $100 you sacrifice the word "optimum".
Then, after you've listened to the two pairs stacked together, try them as boxed dipoles. Place them back to back with each speaker enclosure firing into a different half of the room. So far, that's my preference.
You'll gain a few dB's with the second set over and above the 90dB spec'd sensivity and, depending on your amp and how you make the connection, you could lower the impedance enough to pick up a bit more power output from your amplifier. As of now I'm thinking this might be a good combination with the little $30 Sonic Impact T amp (or the similar Tripath based Italian Autocostriure chip amp; http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/47077/209464.html) running the two pairs at four Ohms to extract the "full" 15 watts per channel from the amp. For a total of $120 this should be a pretty good set up judging by what I'm hearing so far. Add in a $110 Sony SACD player and this would pass quite well for a dorm system.
The speakers are not loaded with detail and they have some resonance problems that need to be addressed, but overall they're not bad. (Tim's suggestion to check the DIY forum is worth the trip.) And doubled they could make a great HT system for cheap bucks.
The comment was made on the forum that the speakers have a wandering impedance load. But no mention was made of the actual swing the speaker takes. Does anyone have any idea just how severe the impedance and phase angle of this speaker is? So far I've just had them connected to my McIntosh tubes and they're a bit bloated in the bottom but this passes as upright bass "woodiness" on the right recordings. Maybe it's time to shove two pairs of socks in the ports. OK, that's the next experiment.
Anyone willing to part with $90, let me know what you think of stacked or dipole Insignias.
Thanks for the work Zaph - interesting results. That 3rd order is strange, and the 'cliff' is something that tends to be tricky to work with. Maybe they'd work best in a sphere sized so that the baffle step hit *right* at that frequency 
Still, for the experiments I'm looking at/thinking of, these still may be a great option. Now, if I can only convince myself I have the time to do the work, it may be worth picking some up. Since they'd compete for time with my 'main' project, it may not be the best time to take something new on.
Still, for the experiments I'm looking at/thinking of, these still may be a great option. Now, if I can only convince myself I have the time to do the work, it may be worth picking some up. Since they'd compete for time with my 'main' project, it may not be the best time to take something new on.
AJinFLA said:
does this kind of stuffing increase apparent volume and attenuate mid bass on the inside of the box?
i know softer materials do that and i was going to buy some for a couple of speakers i'm building, but now having seen that picture... i've got quite a lot of that grey foam!
thanks a lot.
It is very low buget foam that 'purports to appear' to be acoustical in nature. Of course, most acoustical foams fall under that glare as well.
As for Chinese manufacturing, well, I'd be telling tales out of school, now. But rest assured, it is churning along just like Japan and Tiawan did, except the change is talking place twice as fast.
I mean, I even know guys from this side of the pond who go over there and design woofers right at the chinese factory. It doesn't take long to trickle down. Then, we send all our metals over there, and we can't afford to buy the raw materials over here any more, thus driving the price of our OWN product through the roof, while facilitating the manufacturing of even cheaper chinese stuff.-augmented by teaching them the finer aspects of bulk 'quality' manufacturing.
They use the same hardware, and are learing very quickly to manufacture their own hardware. For example, We'll be buying chinese made blow molding equipment soon-at 1 TENTH the US made prices.
And round and round we go. Where we stop, nobody knows.
As for Chinese manufacturing, well, I'd be telling tales out of school, now. But rest assured, it is churning along just like Japan and Tiawan did, except the change is talking place twice as fast.
I mean, I even know guys from this side of the pond who go over there and design woofers right at the chinese factory. It doesn't take long to trickle down. Then, we send all our metals over there, and we can't afford to buy the raw materials over here any more, thus driving the price of our OWN product through the roof, while facilitating the manufacturing of even cheaper chinese stuff.-augmented by teaching them the finer aspects of bulk 'quality' manufacturing.
They use the same hardware, and are learing very quickly to manufacture their own hardware. For example, We'll be buying chinese made blow molding equipment soon-at 1 TENTH the US made prices.
And round and round we go. Where we stop, nobody knows.
Zaph said:
Danny Richie posted some measurements on his site. Taken with 1 watt at 1 meter, R and L speakers shown as seperate traces:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Has a few of the same features as your graph: a peak at 800Hz followed by a 5db drop, "twin peaks" at around 3k and 4k, other peaks at around 15k and 20k.
Zaph's notch filter - cost
For those who can't look at a list of crossover components (or in this case - specifically notch filter components) and estimate the cost - I certainly can't - I ran the numbers based upon components from Madisound.
Cost for speakers (per pair) - $46 + tax (local pickup, in stock near me - they're on sale this week) = $50
Cost for notch filter (per pair) - $33 + shipping = $40
So, you're looking at about a 80% investment on the original purchase price. Personally, I'm going to pick up a pair tomorrow - see how they sound and maybe consider moding a speaker for an A/B comparison (sorry, no measuring equipment available). The option I think I'll go for first is upgraded internal foam and some damping on the spider and magnet post break-in.
Travis
For those who can't look at a list of crossover components (or in this case - specifically notch filter components) and estimate the cost - I certainly can't - I ran the numbers based upon components from Madisound.
Cost for speakers (per pair) - $46 + tax (local pickup, in stock near me - they're on sale this week) = $50
Cost for notch filter (per pair) - $33 + shipping = $40
So, you're looking at about a 80% investment on the original purchase price. Personally, I'm going to pick up a pair tomorrow - see how they sound and maybe consider moding a speaker for an A/B comparison (sorry, no measuring equipment available). The option I think I'll go for first is upgraded internal foam and some damping on the spider and magnet post break-in.
Travis
i tried the best buy insignia speaker today.
it is no where near the quality of the kef speaker.
it is considerably less efficient and has a very hollow boxy sound to it.
the speaker inside the cabinet may make a good car audio driver because it sounds okay in nearfield listening tests and does not beam at increased volumes.
but at home speaker sitting distances, the speaker has less sound quality.
they look expensive that is for sure
the kef is still the clear winner here.
it is no where near the quality of the kef speaker.
it is considerably less efficient and has a very hollow boxy sound to it.
the speaker inside the cabinet may make a good car audio driver because it sounds okay in nearfield listening tests and does not beam at increased volumes.
but at home speaker sitting distances, the speaker has less sound quality.
they look expensive that is for sure
the kef is still the clear winner here.
So how do they compare to Dayton or Pioneer FR?
I realize that the Insignias won't compare to higher end stuff, but what about other budget drivers?
Has anyone hear heard a Dayton Classics 2-way setup? I have some 6.5" Classics and silk tweeters w/ some 2nd order crossers I made. L-pad circuit on the tweeter, rear port.
They sound pretty good to my ears. Any idea how these compare to the Insignias?
Reason I ask is if these don't even compare to budget Daytons, then I could put that money into finishing a Pioneer full range setup. (Money meaning $50 for Insignia + $40 for filter.)
Thanks.
I realize that the Insignias won't compare to higher end stuff, but what about other budget drivers?
Has anyone hear heard a Dayton Classics 2-way setup? I have some 6.5" Classics and silk tweeters w/ some 2nd order crossers I made. L-pad circuit on the tweeter, rear port.
They sound pretty good to my ears. Any idea how these compare to the Insignias?
Reason I ask is if these don't even compare to budget Daytons, then I could put that money into finishing a Pioneer full range setup. (Money meaning $50 for Insignia + $40 for filter.)
Thanks.
Also, don't knock looking or vintage speakers going for great prices. (ebay, craigslist, garage sale, etc.)
I came across a pair of mint condition vintage polk monitor 4s that had peerless tweeters... OMG was I happy. And these things are made very very well. Bass is weak (as with any bookshelf), but has a very smooth range. Only negative point was that the previous owner had mounted them on brackets, so there were holes in the back from the screws. Ugly, easy enough to fix, and no effect on the sound.
Lotsa different things hiding out there, all with their own distinct character. Just don't go for anything old with foam surrounds, unless you have cash to repair them.
I came across a pair of mint condition vintage polk monitor 4s that had peerless tweeters... OMG was I happy. And these things are made very very well. Bass is weak (as with any bookshelf), but has a very smooth range. Only negative point was that the previous owner had mounted them on brackets, so there were holes in the back from the screws. Ugly, easy enough to fix, and no effect on the sound.
Lotsa different things hiding out there, all with their own distinct character. Just don't go for anything old with foam surrounds, unless you have cash to repair them.
http://www.ubid.com/KEF_Coda_9.2__2.../a10699361.html
they had free shipping on them last week. made the total 100.00 for the pair
they had free shipping on them last week. made the total 100.00 for the pair
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