Hi,
I am planning to make a pair of speakers with a RAAL ribbon tweeter and an Eminence Lab12 woofer. I have a plan for the midrange being open baffle but it is an odd design not done before so in the case that it doesn't work I want to have a back-up plan.
That plan is to ditch the midrange driver and use the ribbon and lab12 woofer with another midrange in a more normal implementation.
So for a midrange driver to cross at about 2KHz to the ribbon and 150Hz to the Lab12, what would be your pick? Money is not too much of an issue but not stupidly expensive drivers please, defiantly no more than £150 per driver inc. postage!
So… for a normal size driver to xover at 150Hz it obviously needs to be in an enclosure (open baffle can't be big, you see). I thought the Scan-speak revelator slit cones and of course the 21W-8554 of linkwitz fame looked good as did the Accuton C92-6. I have not heard any of these though. I heard a few Accuton designs but not with that driver and they did sound very low distortion. What else is there? It needs to handle pretty high SPL too, say over 100dB in-room from 150Hz up.
My music preferences are loud, clean and oh so detailed low distortion for rock, metal, emo right through to jazz, chill out, vocal instrumental etc.. My current speakers are a pair of PMC AML1’s which is an active two-way. Though bear in mind these don’t sound much like the other PMC stuff, more like the MB2 and BB5.
Thankies!
I am planning to make a pair of speakers with a RAAL ribbon tweeter and an Eminence Lab12 woofer. I have a plan for the midrange being open baffle but it is an odd design not done before so in the case that it doesn't work I want to have a back-up plan.
That plan is to ditch the midrange driver and use the ribbon and lab12 woofer with another midrange in a more normal implementation.
So for a midrange driver to cross at about 2KHz to the ribbon and 150Hz to the Lab12, what would be your pick? Money is not too much of an issue but not stupidly expensive drivers please, defiantly no more than £150 per driver inc. postage!
So… for a normal size driver to xover at 150Hz it obviously needs to be in an enclosure (open baffle can't be big, you see). I thought the Scan-speak revelator slit cones and of course the 21W-8554 of linkwitz fame looked good as did the Accuton C92-6. I have not heard any of these though. I heard a few Accuton designs but not with that driver and they did sound very low distortion. What else is there? It needs to handle pretty high SPL too, say over 100dB in-room from 150Hz up.
My music preferences are loud, clean and oh so detailed low distortion for rock, metal, emo right through to jazz, chill out, vocal instrumental etc.. My current speakers are a pair of PMC AML1’s which is an active two-way. Though bear in mind these don’t sound much like the other PMC stuff, more like the MB2 and BB5.
Thankies!
if you want the best, you should buy all the midranges that are sold at madisound and partsexpress, and hear and compare each one of them using your computer as crossover. this way you are relying on your own ears, and that's good yes. otherwise people will just give you suggestions both good and bad and there's no way to know good from bad, and bad from good.
i would go for a peerless exclusive 830882 because it is detailed-sounding and has wide soundstage at the same time. Vifa XG18 is also a very good option if you don't mind a more jagged FR.
i would go for a peerless exclusive 830882 because it is detailed-sounding and has wide soundstage at the same time. Vifa XG18 is also a very good option if you don't mind a more jagged FR.
Tenson said:
Easy:
The veravox 5s
(also at Solen.ca)
Note of course that with baffle step effects it will likely be attenuated below 500 Hz. (..but then this is true of most drivers on most baffles)
This driver has excellent linear decay character like the RAAL, all the way up to 6kHz.
IF you can shell-out the additional cash for a two driver arrangement then consider the Bandor 16 ohm 150DW/16 in parallel (for an additional +6db with a voltage amp).
http://www.bandor.com/
This series of drivers is somewhat unique in that it has "baffle-step correction" already built into the driver's curve. Additionally its linear decay character is also excellent (like the Jordan drivers and UNLIKE normal metal drivers from co.'s like Seas).
In the correct enclosure you can achieve in-room low freq. extension flat to about 18 Hz.
I can't afford to buy every driver there is....
The H1224 has a nasty lot of break-up which I don't like the look of.
Can't find a lot about the Veravox 5s. I don't think the Bandor will be needed as there will be a Lab12 for bass duties, which I doubt the Bandor could hold a flame to?
Keep 'em coming!
The H1224 has a nasty lot of break-up which I don't like the look of.
Can't find a lot about the Veravox 5s. I don't think the Bandor will be needed as there will be a Lab12 for bass duties, which I doubt the Bandor could hold a flame to?
Keep 'em coming!
Perhaps what you want is a pair of 8" midbass drivers in an MTM so you can cross at 2k and get some decent output. Do those AMCs use Vifa poly drivers or similar? If you like the sound then perhaps there is the Vifa P21. You might also look at some of the Peerless drivers - HDS.
You say you like detailed, but are you sure about that? I find detailed and very accurate speakers are a bit unforgiving on most recordings. I remember listening to some VAF signature speakers which use Seas Excel drivers - outstanding on very well recorded jazz, but completely destroyed a typical rock or pop CD. I'm accustomed to poly cones which are more forgiving.
Over 100db in room?
That is a challenge for a driver that can cross at 2k with just one of them. I start to think of larger HE drivers but then they will beam at 2k. Hence I come back to the idea of MTM with a pair of 8" drivers, and if output is not enough, then add some more to counter dipole roll-off so you would have WMTMW.
OB above fequal can be efficient in the midrange if you don't use treatments to kill the back wave. The Linkwitz Phoenix has an efficiency of 99db over 250 Hz and 92db at 100 Hz.
I doubt the Lab12 driver would perform well up to 150 Hz. I'd be suspicious of its performance above 50 Hz.
You say you like detailed, but are you sure about that? I find detailed and very accurate speakers are a bit unforgiving on most recordings. I remember listening to some VAF signature speakers which use Seas Excel drivers - outstanding on very well recorded jazz, but completely destroyed a typical rock or pop CD. I'm accustomed to poly cones which are more forgiving.
Over 100db in room?
That is a challenge for a driver that can cross at 2k with just one of them. I start to think of larger HE drivers but then they will beam at 2k. Hence I come back to the idea of MTM with a pair of 8" drivers, and if output is not enough, then add some more to counter dipole roll-off so you would have WMTMW.
OB above fequal can be efficient in the midrange if you don't use treatments to kill the back wave. The Linkwitz Phoenix has an efficiency of 99db over 250 Hz and 92db at 100 Hz.
I doubt the Lab12 driver would perform well up to 150 Hz. I'd be suspicious of its performance above 50 Hz.
i agree 100% with this, if you already bought them, you should more think 70 - 2000 than 150 - 2000
in this case what you need for a mid is a 8", so you won't have too much problems about IM distortion. Moreover , if you REALLY wanna try open baffle , you are gonna need a bass driver that goes higher than this, or a very large baffle + high Qt midbass driver, or a lot of active EQ
if you have the means to do active EQ, any 8" driver with a good xmax, and good extension in the mids will do the trick (think vifa poly, peerless exclusive, monacor kevlar drivers)
if you don't, well, i don't know of any driver with high Qt, high xmax, and good extension, so you would have to choose another bass driver in order to achieve a good transition between your bass and midbass.
if you go closed, or even better, aperiodic TL for your mid driver, then my above recommendations applies.
Monacor SPH-200KE
Peerless HDS-205EXCL
or even smaller drivers like one of the good 6" you quoted in your first post
I was going to suggest Adire extremis, but then I thought of this:
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
It looks quite similar but much better price.
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
It looks quite similar but much better price.
Why do you doubt the Lab12's performance about 70Hz or so? It shows a smooth response up to 100Hz where it wobbles a little bit up to 200Hz them breaks. A sharp Xover at 100Hz-150Hz seemed like it would do.
I am only going open baffle for my first design which I have decided on already. This is my back-up plan and I would go infinite baffle I think. I don't like the idea of ported or TL for a mid/bass. In fact if possible why use it at all?!
So okay, I need a driver that can do 100Hz-2KHz in an infinite baffle and do it loud and very very clean.
Sounds like the Scan-Speak 21W-8554 to me?
If I put that in a small, say 17liter infinite baffle then it peaks a little around 100Hz which I can bring own with EQ. It then rolls off smoothly to 50Hz. I could use the Lab12 simply as a fill in woofer.
I know Linkwitz did a lot of tests when he did the Phoenix, so why did he use a different driver in the Orion?
Yes I'm sure I like detailed accurate speakers. The AML1 use the PMC custom made flat piston woofer as in the IB1/IB2 and their top of the line tweeter as in the MB2 active and BB5 active. I really like the sound of the MEG RL901K as well, which is probably the most accurate speaker I know of (until mine
).
Cheers
I am only going open baffle for my first design which I have decided on already. This is my back-up plan and I would go infinite baffle I think. I don't like the idea of ported or TL for a mid/bass. In fact if possible why use it at all?!
So okay, I need a driver that can do 100Hz-2KHz in an infinite baffle and do it loud and very very clean.
Sounds like the Scan-Speak 21W-8554 to me?
If I put that in a small, say 17liter infinite baffle then it peaks a little around 100Hz which I can bring own with EQ. It then rolls off smoothly to 50Hz. I could use the Lab12 simply as a fill in woofer.
I know Linkwitz did a lot of tests when he did the Phoenix, so why did he use a different driver in the Orion?
Yes I'm sure I like detailed accurate speakers. The AML1 use the PMC custom made flat piston woofer as in the IB1/IB2 and their top of the line tweeter as in the MB2 active and BB5 active. I really like the sound of the MEG RL901K as well, which is probably the most accurate speaker I know of (until mine
).Cheers
Tenson said:
I found for C-Quenze series 6" about 240 €, and Flex Units 6" 360-370 €.
At Solen (Canada) FlexUnits 6h52.... is 490$, its 387 €. In EU it must be some less.
Distributors
Open Air Germany Skaaning price list
5H52 - 264 €
hey tenson , this is the response about your question, why you have to cross it under 150hz. I quote zaph, on his page, why lower xmax woofers sound better
Accuton ceramic units. 5" or 6".
Accuton
C2_95-T6 - USA Retail $ 252
Accuton
C2_95-T6 - USA Retail $ 252
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
How do I know if it has a long voice coil or not? It just says the diameter. I was under the impression large diameter voice coils are better for low distortion and power compression. Not sure about their length though.
So, are there any 12" woofers that can go higher than the Lab12 and still give a good deal of bass in an EQ'd infinite baffle box? Similar price too.
So, are there any 12" woofers that can go higher than the Lab12 and still give a good deal of bass in an EQ'd infinite baffle box? Similar price too.
hello tenson !
the lenght of the voice coils is one of the factor defining the Xmax of your drivers, even if it depends on the motor structure.
The LAB12 motor structure seems to be pretty classic, so i guess zaph's comment is totally relevant in the case of the LAB12
Then, there is no secret,if you want to be able to cross higher without dealing with harmonic distortion problems, you will have to trade Xmax.
when you say infinite baffle, you are talking about a closed box right ?
then a 8" midrange could do the trick if you cross the drivers at 70hz 4th order
Note that some motor technologies seems to improve theses fact, like adire XBL2, but i don't know the figures about that so i will let the elders speak
the lenght of the voice coils is one of the factor defining the Xmax of your drivers, even if it depends on the motor structure.
The LAB12 motor structure seems to be pretty classic, so i guess zaph's comment is totally relevant in the case of the LAB12
Then, there is no secret,if you want to be able to cross higher without dealing with harmonic distortion problems, you will have to trade Xmax.
when you say infinite baffle, you are talking about a closed box right ?
then a 8" midrange could do the trick if you cross the drivers at 70hz 4th order
Note that some motor technologies seems to improve theses fact, like adire XBL2, but i don't know the figures about that so i will let the elders speak
if you want to cross higher, while using for example a smaller driver for the midbass, i would advise you to go with this kind of driver :
Hivi W12
Hivi M12
or even
Peerless SLS12
i did put three of them so you can see the difference with the LAB12 or any other super woofer that has around 15mm xmax :
Theses have an halfed xmax, a little less bass capability, doesn't present the "peak and dip" configuration of such drivers, and are crossable to 200-300hz, even more for the SLS.
On the other side, 8mm xmax is still sufficient for most applications, especially provided you are using two drivers
such drivers will allow you to use smaller drivers like the audiotechnology 5" or 6", or any other, that will have better off axis response around the crossover to the ribbon.
it's your choice,but don't mix the two solutions = don't put a 5" driver with 2 mm xmax in a sealed enclosure crossed over to the LAB12
Hivi W12
Hivi M12
or even
Peerless SLS12
i did put three of them so you can see the difference with the LAB12 or any other super woofer that has around 15mm xmax :
Theses have an halfed xmax, a little less bass capability, doesn't present the "peak and dip" configuration of such drivers, and are crossable to 200-300hz, even more for the SLS.
On the other side, 8mm xmax is still sufficient for most applications, especially provided you are using two drivers
such drivers will allow you to use smaller drivers like the audiotechnology 5" or 6", or any other, that will have better off axis response around the crossover to the ribbon.
it's your choice,but don't mix the two solutions = don't put a 5" driver with 2 mm xmax in a sealed enclosure crossed over to the LAB12
I think I would rather use a slightly larger mid driver than change to any of those bass drivers. They would all need to be ported to achieve bass down to 20Hz at any good level. For accuracy I prefer closed box with high power and Xmax.
I do like the Accuton drivers but even the 7" doesn't seem to go loud enough at 100Hz in a closed box. The Scan speak revelator and the 21 thingi from the Pheonix go a bit higher though.
I do like the Accuton drivers but even the 7" doesn't seem to go loud enough at 100Hz in a closed box. The Scan speak revelator and the 21 thingi from the Pheonix go a bit higher though.
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