If good speakers make it sound like you were there at the concert or somthing then good speakers are PA systems as all concets have PA systems playing into the crowd.
As it is a well know fact that most PA speakers are very poor quality and are just built to withstand punishment why dod people insist on saying this????????????
As it is a well know fact that most PA speakers are very poor quality and are just built to withstand punishment why dod people insist on saying this????????????
"sounding live" has a LOT to do with how it was recorded, of which most popular music is close-mic'd if mic'd at all.
Classical recordings are generally mic'd with only a couple microphones wherever practical.
Most "live" instruments in the classical sense are not amplified, and are not in the same class as say, a marshall stack or a synthesizer.
A "live sounding" speaker is one which generally plays back EXACTLY what the source material has recorded, without "flavoring" or "smearing" the recorded sound. Hence, if you play a direct-to-tape recording of a small ensemble stereo mic'd from front-center of a amphitheater, it "should" sound exactly as if you were seated where the mic's were. Conversly if you listen to a Brian Eno recording, it will not sound "live" in the sense, but would sound exactly as what was recorded to tape.
"How the artist heard it" in the studio is a long tangent of it's own I'll just leave be.
Classical recordings are generally mic'd with only a couple microphones wherever practical.
Most "live" instruments in the classical sense are not amplified, and are not in the same class as say, a marshall stack or a synthesizer.
A "live sounding" speaker is one which generally plays back EXACTLY what the source material has recorded, without "flavoring" or "smearing" the recorded sound. Hence, if you play a direct-to-tape recording of a small ensemble stereo mic'd from front-center of a amphitheater, it "should" sound exactly as if you were seated where the mic's were. Conversly if you listen to a Brian Eno recording, it will not sound "live" in the sense, but would sound exactly as what was recorded to tape.
"How the artist heard it" in the studio is a long tangent of it's own I'll just leave be.
bob123 said:
Let me preface this by saying: I read and will use "PA" as "Professional Audio" here.
A well known fact? Pshaw. Many of the better drivers around are designed for PA use. Why? Because PA is a highly competitive market, with large budgets and production runs, and there's far less voodoo than in hifi. Cheap is cheap, if it's PA or hifi, but once you get away from the low-end stuff, the PA drivers start to become very attractive: High efficiencies, reliability, features that have nothing to do with cosmetics and are all about performance. Check out the Eminence Magnum HO style woofers. They're serious performance driven PA drivers. And they're far from alone- JBL, B&C, even Yamaha have some very impressive drivers.
They're not few and far between, but there is more convergence of the designs due to the criteria of PA use. I'd say that most PA drivers of a price are competitive (or better than) with home audio style drivers of equivalent price in terms of absolute quality. They just represent a different set of compromises.
I use a PA-style midrange in my rig, and love it to death. I'm also going to be boxing up a pair of Eminence Magnum 15HOs (probably 100L sealed or thereabouts) at some point this summer. I've had them in their boxes for over a year already, and kick myself about it weekly. Some people might argue that they roll off far too soon in this application, but consider room gain, and all of a sudden the slow rolloff that starts up high doesn't seem so scary.
And oh yeah, one more thing: Edgarhorns use PA style drivers and they're amazing.
I think that term really stems from people who listen to classical or un-amplified acoustic music.
At any rate, Badman is right (I hope!). I am going to be building some speakers soon probably using a Magnum 12HO for midrange/bass. Most PA systems you hear are not using such good drivers, only the very top ones do. Also they will be pushing the drivers FAR harder than you or I would. At the domestic SPL levels they will be very very clean. Just look at SERIOUS studio monitors. They use these kind of drivers. Westlake anyone?
Still I will know for sure when I build them and hear them in my own home and system.
At any rate, Badman is right (I hope!). I am going to be building some speakers soon probably using a Magnum 12HO for midrange/bass. Most PA systems you hear are not using such good drivers, only the very top ones do. Also they will be pushing the drivers FAR harder than you or I would. At the domestic SPL levels they will be very very clean. Just look at SERIOUS studio monitors. They use these kind of drivers. Westlake anyone?
Still I will know for sure when I build them and hear them in my own home and system.
I think PA or professional audio as someone else pointed out can also encompass the studio side of equipment.
The very best speakers on the planet aren't pretentious hifi but studio monitors. A few companies tread the line well between both but even then they feel the need to have two seperate product entities, normally denoted by 'domestic' and 'professional'. And this proves a point, however what that point is depends upon your perspective. I know what I think.
The very best speakers on the planet aren't pretentious hifi but studio monitors. A few companies tread the line well between both but even then they feel the need to have two seperate product entities, normally denoted by 'domestic' and 'professional'. And this proves a point, however what that point is depends upon your perspective. I know what I think.
Another case in point for high end PA drivers is PHL. Ask Andre at E-speakers. He got the contract for sound at the Turin Olympics, and did it all with PHL's. They were designed for high SPL, accurate, not cheap sound enforcement. All I can say as I sit here listening to PHL 1240's with a Raven 2, that they are a no comprimise top shelf driver.
DaveM
DaveM
IMHO this is not a black or white issue.
The only general difference between loudspeakers designed for domestic use (ie. "hi-fi") and professional (ie. commercial/public address) is the constraint on form factor/size and position of placement, and required SPL for playing at realistic levels at x feet to y area of people.
Don't get hung up on "better, best, very best" etc.
In terms of drivers, as well as completed loudspeakers, it just depends on your design goals.
In my living room of 20x15', if I want a compact speaker (eg. 20L) which is near-full range (flat down to 32Hz), then I'm going to have to sacrifice sensitivity (~80dB/W) and max SPL (<100dB/1m).
On the other hand, if I want to play to >200 guests at my function with big rooms bigs that open into others, I need high SPL, which generally means high sensitivity and/or power to achieve at least 125dB/1m.
If I only have 60 litres of cabinet volume I can do it choosing the right driver, but it means sacrificing bass extention down to maybe only 60Hz...
The only general difference between loudspeakers designed for domestic use (ie. "hi-fi") and professional (ie. commercial/public address) is the constraint on form factor/size and position of placement, and required SPL for playing at realistic levels at x feet to y area of people.
Don't get hung up on "better, best, very best" etc.
In terms of drivers, as well as completed loudspeakers, it just depends on your design goals.
In my living room of 20x15', if I want a compact speaker (eg. 20L) which is near-full range (flat down to 32Hz), then I'm going to have to sacrifice sensitivity (~80dB/W) and max SPL (<100dB/1m).
On the other hand, if I want to play to >200 guests at my function with big rooms bigs that open into others, I need high SPL, which generally means high sensitivity and/or power to achieve at least 125dB/1m.
If I only have 60 litres of cabinet volume I can do it choosing the right driver, but it means sacrificing bass extention down to maybe only 60Hz...
I have had the pleasure to delve deep into speaker design both domestic and professional. Ranging from 3 inch single driver minis to fully rigged line array. The professional world has deep no nonsense technical expertise and heroic tasks to undertake. Domestic if expensive, is boutique mentality when not DIY.
I only wish that Oscar Heil produces a domestic loudspeaker at Euro 5.000 price point and someone sets it up near a similar price Hi-End one (I especially wish it is a snake oil Redheko). Apocalypse now.
I only wish that Oscar Heil produces a domestic loudspeaker at Euro 5.000 price point and someone sets it up near a similar price Hi-End one (I especially wish it is a snake oil Redheko). Apocalypse now.
bob123 said:
Live sound is not by default PA sound. It means live instruments. Think about small jazz club or restaurant. Or concert venue where classical is played. These places gives you opportunity to hear live instruments without amplification. That is where the saying "like live sound" stems from. If you memorize that you will understand that we are still long way from "live sound" ether with High End or PA speakers.
In my mind PA sound is very often mixed with the acoustics of the space where played. Lets take audiophile approach. Besides being impractical or impossible lets imagine if we fill sport arena or football field with domestic High End speakers and class A amps with best sources. Besides not being able to reach levels required, I doubt we will be able to hear much difference. Any benefit would be lost due to the space itself. Another requirement that gives bed reputation to PA systems is power needed. PA systems are designed to give highest output with least amount of power. Still a monster amps are used to achieve needed high output, and that is what people are calling bad PA sound. But there is completely another trend - PA speakers - particularly horns and mid drivers are used with low powered SE vacuum tube amps. If you ever have chance to hear that you will change you mind regarding PA systems.
Last year I've built a Ciare professional project, two ways reflex monitor (PR040) and I like them, they are very detailed.
The bass is very fast but unfortunatly isn't so extended...
The box looks a bit strong (390 x 590 x 300 mm, +or- 50liters total) but with 98db at 2,83V/1m also the little Charlize could be loud.
I like this project but I'd like to build a new better monitor project or a Jordan JX92S project in 2007, quien sabe?? Diy is fun!!
The bass is very fast but unfortunatly isn't so extended...
The box looks a bit strong (390 x 590 x 300 mm, +or- 50liters total) but with 98db at 2,83V/1m also the little Charlize could be loud.
I like this project but I'd like to build a new better monitor project or a Jordan JX92S project in 2007, quien sabe?? Diy is fun!!
Re: Re: Why do good speakers make it sound like it was live!!!!!!!!!
Quite true. While this makes perfect sense, unfortunately there are more issues clouding what otherwise should not elicit discussion.
For original (i.e. non-amplified source material), there are two aspects to contemplate regarding accuracy of reproduction.
On the one hand obviously is distortionless reproduction both in linearity and frequency - phase response. This can be achieved nowadays in a fairly strightforward way with proper care and moderate cost.
The other point is the accurate reproduction of the original sound field, the like of an acoustical holography. This is nearly impossible to achieve with current technology and may be argued will never be. Yet, as much as reproduction short of this goal cannot qualify as "like being there", it must also be reckoned it probably is not essential and less precise rendering are completely acceptable, but it is more of a personal judgement.
The other big issue is how can be set a reference when the program material is the result of heavy mixing - processing, or even of synthethic nature. Again the end result of reproduction will most probably be evaluated on a personal and subjective manner, negating the acceptance of standard rules but at most accurate reproduction of the recorded source.
Rodolfo
AR2 said:
Quite true. While this makes perfect sense, unfortunately there are more issues clouding what otherwise should not elicit discussion.
For original (i.e. non-amplified source material), there are two aspects to contemplate regarding accuracy of reproduction.
On the one hand obviously is distortionless reproduction both in linearity and frequency - phase response. This can be achieved nowadays in a fairly strightforward way with proper care and moderate cost.
The other point is the accurate reproduction of the original sound field, the like of an acoustical holography. This is nearly impossible to achieve with current technology and may be argued will never be. Yet, as much as reproduction short of this goal cannot qualify as "like being there", it must also be reckoned it probably is not essential and less precise rendering are completely acceptable, but it is more of a personal judgement.
The other big issue is how can be set a reference when the program material is the result of heavy mixing - processing, or even of synthethic nature. Again the end result of reproduction will most probably be evaluated on a personal and subjective manner, negating the acceptance of standard rules but at most accurate reproduction of the recorded source.
Rodolfo
I think we better stick to PA meaning public address. If we don't, the next thing we know people will start calling a 6.5" midbass a "sub"
Oh wait...
Actually I'm one of the ones that prefer the PA sound to Hifi. I have long past the point where I try to make a ruler flat FR graph, I like to tailor the sound to the listening environment. Sometimes that means EQing till I'm happy and graphs be damned.
If you lack an appreciation for PA equipment, take your home speakers outside and put them beside a pair of PA units and listen from 50 feet or so away. You quickly get an idea why there is a difference and which is better for each environment.
Oh wait...
Actually I'm one of the ones that prefer the PA sound to Hifi. I have long past the point where I try to make a ruler flat FR graph, I like to tailor the sound to the listening environment. Sometimes that means EQing till I'm happy and graphs be damned.
If you lack an appreciation for PA equipment, take your home speakers outside and put them beside a pair of PA units and listen from 50 feet or so away. You quickly get an idea why there is a difference and which is better for each environment.
Cal Weldon said:
Ha!
Actually there are a few that already do! Stretching perspective to max pain.
i jump on the PA bandwagon, and have been for over 30 years.
i also think there are 2 perspectives of live now days. first your orchestra, ie live unamplified instruments, and second live as played thru speakers such as black sabboth and metallica etc. both are legitimately live and a "good" system can reproduce either with a few twists of the knobs.
i really liked the badmans term "boutique" to describe domestic speakers! that so perfectly hit the nail on the head! In fact its what inspired me to post in this thread LOL
as far as i am concerned i am very happy to see more people realizing that pa is where its at when you want the best of all worlds without all the garbage that goes along with the boutique approach!
The "boutique" style systems invariably sound bad regardless of how many zeros are in the cost, or how heavy the equipment is.
My preference? well, peaked nasty unwieldy pa horns of course.....that i would not recommend to anyone unless they are willing to buy the proper associated support equipment.
Horns are the "only" speakers (as a general rule), imvho that can outperform all others; inside, oustide, extremely quiet, extremely loud, and have the best top to bottom "resolution" and articulation with a ruler flat response from 22ish to 20k in vitually any environment all rolled up into one design.
as an example, on mine, i have 3 way active xovr, triamp'd, 100 bands of digital parametric eq tone control, each variable between 1/60th to 10 octaves wide of bandwidth control for precise placement and when indoors i use between 80 to 90 of them, to set it up and yes the listener rta nearly exactly matches the "line in" rta within a couple db worst case using music program not noise.
Its a pragmatic no thrills ugly motha to look at but then unlike my women i could care less about the looks.
i start with noise to get an idea of where we are at and after twisting a few knobs only a good ear can tweak things in the rest of the way, and once that is done you can play anything trough it without a significant need to adjust, albeit some recordings are so far off ya have too.
Anyway my 2 cents worth, glad to see others are jumping on the pro bandwagon and i hope more people in my area do as well cuz it would be nice to hear a few other good systems around here.
pa all the way!
cheers!
I use a pair Altec studio monitors, so my bias should be obvious.
As has been pointed out here, if in different words, the main difference between hi-fi and PA is hype. Hi-fi gear, according to the spec sheets, measures like there's no tomorrow. $300 bookshelf speakers have better frequency range (around 40-20,000 Hz) than the entire rig used by the Rolling Stones! At least if you believe the spec sheets. The spec sheet for the million dollar Rolling Stones rig probably says 35-16,000 Hz.
Do I think PA is inherently better? Hell no. The reason to go PA is to not get lied to.
As has been pointed out here, if in different words, the main difference between hi-fi and PA is hype. Hi-fi gear, according to the spec sheets, measures like there's no tomorrow. $300 bookshelf speakers have better frequency range (around 40-20,000 Hz) than the entire rig used by the Rolling Stones! At least if you believe the spec sheets. The spec sheet for the million dollar Rolling Stones rig probably says 35-16,000 Hz.
Do I think PA is inherently better? Hell no. The reason to go PA is to not get lied to.
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