I hate Veneer!!!!

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Well my first project was coming along just wonderful. Cabinets were built from 3/4 MDF and turned out great. Built the crossovers, and they turned out great. Just tried to veneer today using birch, The boxes are now ruined. Along the edges the veneer peeled and cracked in the direction of the grain where it needed to be flushed.

Is this just something common to birch? Do I just have a crappy technique? Is it just a crappy veneer?

I used contact cement, 2 coats on each surface, when dry I attached the veneer to the MDF. First tried using a flush mount router to trim the veneer. Cracked and peeled. Then tried using a razor blade. Cracked and peeled. Then folded over with the Jroller and sanded the edge off. This worked the best, but still cracked and peeled.

In order to save the boxes, I think I will now laminate them with 1/4" oak or something.

Needless to say, my first experience with veneer will most likely be my last.`,
 
That's a shame, all the work put into the boxes and a bad finish. I've used veneer before with good results, here's how I do it. Roll out the veneer and pin it to your work table, shellac the back of the veneer and let it dry for a couple of hours. The shellac seals the veneer so no glues can seep though and ruin any finishing. I then roll on some Titebond glue it's a polyaliphatic resin, I get it at Lee Valley, maybe Home Depot has it. Put a coat of glue on the box surface and the back of the veneer and let them both dry. Then all you have to do is place your veneer piece and get your iron, set to cotton and iron on the veneer. It works great the iron helps smooth out the veneer and the bond is great. I use a router with a laminate trim bit to cut off the excess but I have used a razor and a file for smaller work in the past. Then it's up to you how to finish, oil, stain, gel? Hope this helps.
 
Veneer and particle board

with particle board you actually have to veneer twice - once with a substrate at 90 degrees perpendicular to the line of the top layer. <p>
There is a specific saw for veneers -- you have to cut the veneer on a smooth surface. Believe me, a razor or utility knife will not work as the grain will pull it out of line.<p>There is a specific type of roller for veneer, a veneer hammer etc.
<p> with respect to adhesives. I gave up on vinyl contact adhesives about 20 years ago. The best adhesive is plain old glue flakes, but if you don't have a glue pot then try using one of the non-vinyl contact cements from MMM.
<p> since you have a disaster on your hands, why not try a laminate like black formica -- very easy to work with.
 
I use a razor blade on paper backed veneer and a veneer saw on solid veneer. When using a razor lay down a thin metal sheet as a spacer, a thin metal ruler works great, slide the razor (very thin, no utility knives) parallel along the thin metal spacer for a great cut. Now all you have to do is sand it flush, it only takes a minute to sand it flush since there is only a 32nd protruding. With a router I use a bullnose trim bit. I put down two layers of masking tape and wax it for the bit to ride on. Trim against the grain first, then while cutting along the grain let the bit climb down the veneer. Don't let the bit cut against the veneer, this causes spliting. Also use a trim router, it's easier to manage for climb cuts. Then sand it flush. I use contact cement on paper backed veneer. It is easy to use and holds great. Use cement with a high solid count, read more expensive.

Rob
 
Milzie, is the trimming that you are doing across the grain (ie at the top and bottom of the cabinet, assuming you are running the grain vertically)?

There's quite a good article about veneering at http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/VeenerTutorial.pdf where he talks about using contact cement.

I haven't done any myself yet, so its nice to see plenty of suggestions here. I'm planning to use a 1" (25mm) radius on all four corners. Does anyone have any experience with wrapping veneers around this kind of radius, and have any tips? I have thought about using an iron on veneer.

Mick
 
I was trimming both with the grain and across the grain. The veneer is not paper backed. The grain just seemed to split apart and pull away. I think I am going to finish these boxes and try out some of the techniques above and I will stain them black (hopefully to hide some of the flaws).

Then I guess I will start the next pair of boxes and either finish with veneer again, If I can get it to work, or I will face it with some 1/4" hardwood if I cant get the veneer.

Thanks for all the tips thus far, any more would be appreciated.
 
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Joined 2002
Just a quick thought, if your glue layer was too thick, then veneer can move silghtly whilst being trimmed, leading to just the problems you describe.

I recomend the PVA wood glue and hot iron method mentioned by Rip, this produces excellent results if care is taken, IMHO, contact adhesives should be reserved for plastic laminates.
 
the problem with PVA glues

is that the wood fiber absorbs a lot of the water and swells -- the best results I ever had were using hide glue flakes which you disolve in water in a glue pot. You have to work quickly with the stuff. One of the great advantages is that if you get a little slopover you can take a scraper and remove the excess very easily and quickly. This allows you to stain. With the vinyl adhesives if you get a little glue on the topside surface you will never get it off sufficiently well to stain.<p>
here's a link to Constantines -- the store used to be (it may still be) in the Bronx near Einstein hospital. They seem to have a very comprehensive webstore:
http://www.constantines.com/
 
Vinyl adhesives

I guess that I should clarify -- PVA is a vinyl, (poly vinyl acetate) the problematic contact resins include not only those which are non-halogenated (like PVA), but also those which are halogenated, or use ketones and alcohols as the solvent -- if you get a drop of the resin on the topside of the veneer you'll never get it out (until you sand down to the substrate.)
 
Make sure you don't use the environmentally friendly contact cement (it's kinda green or blue.) Make sure you use the full solvent based contact cement. I had some cracking problems with cherry where the wood shrunk after application, leaving cracks which I had to fill. Luckily that side was mostly cut out for a sub driver. I used 'real' contact cement on the other side and no problems. I also had bad problems with the veneer curling up with the non-solvent based stuff before application.

That environmentally friendly contact cement went straight to the landfill! :eek:
 
Retired diyAudio Moderator
Joined 2002
relder said:
Make sure you don't use the environmentally friendly contact cement (it's kinda green or blue.) Make sure you use the full solvent based contact cement. I had some cracking problems with cherry where the wood shrunk after application, leaving cracks which I had to fill. Luckily that side was mostly cut out for a sub driver. I used 'real' contact cement on the other side and no problems. I also had bad problems with the veneer curling up with the non-solvent based stuff before application.

That environmentally friendly contact cement went straight to the landfill! :eek:

Why does the good stuff alway have to harm the environment? R12 refrigerant is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the new stuff doesn't make cars nearly as cold... but it kills the ozone...

Anyway... for veneered speakers, these are one of the best pairs that I have seen in a while:
http://www.diyvideo.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=87139#post86938

--
Brian
 
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