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Old 26th November 2002, 04:54 AM   #21
ststone is offline ststone  United States
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And paint to...
It never comes out the way it should, or I believe it should.
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Old 26th November 2002, 12:41 PM   #22
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Default Good things/Bad things and the enviros

As I said, you have to kill a hayburning horse to get the stuff, but hide glue is the best stuff in the world for veneering. What else are they gonna do with the horse once it's dead anyway?

<b> Why does the good stuff alway have to harm the environment? R12 refrigerant is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the new stuff doesn't make cars nearly as cold... but it kills the ozone...</b>

Try getting a good alkyd paint these days -- the acrylics, even the expensive ones, fall off our cedar shingles in a year.

We have the most friendly eco-friendly water company here in NJ -- this is why I have to put two water filters on the line.
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Old 26th November 2002, 09:34 PM   #23
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RE: "having been a veggie for 15 years I have a bit of a problem with hide glue!".

I can understand someone's viewpoint about our societies dependence on institutionalized processing of animals. However...

Hide glue is proably the oldest glue man ever created, it's non- toxic (you lick it on envelopes and postage stamps) and makes use of material (beef cattle hide collegen-not ground up horses) that would otherwise end up in a...landfill. It's one of the earliest examples of pre-industrial mankind finding value in recycling and was invented ages before there was any such thing as industrial chemical engineering which we can now blame for contaminated water supplies the world over.

In my opinion using any other kind of glue based on poly vinyl, ether, toulane, acetone etc. and yet having ethical issues about hide glue is somewhat hypocritical.

And besides, it's the best glue for verneering. And it's reversable.
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Old 27th November 2002, 12:17 AM   #24
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Yeh, Timo, I know, it's a bugger...
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Old 27th November 2002, 11:16 AM   #25
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Question glues

I am a little confused about the names for glues here:

* What is contact cement? As it can be rolled onto two surfaces and left to dry for several hours before the two pieces are joined, it is probably not what we know as contact glue here?

Contact glue (most prominent brand here is Pattex, the French call it Néoprene colle) comes in tubes or buckets, it definitely has a lot of solvents and is usually opaque and yellowish-brown, but there is a clear variety now. You apply it thinly to both surfaces, let it dry for 3-5 minutes and then press the two pieces together very hard. Presumably, not the duration of the pressing but the maximum pressure is important for the strength of the adhesion.

* What is hide glue? Apparently, it is the "gum" on stamps. We can buy a water based glue here that is known as generic paper glue. I can imagine the flakes are just the raw material. Amazing that this stuff should be strong enough for veneer.

* Carpenters here used to use "bone glue", i.e. some glue made from the bones and hide of animals. You buy the stuff in solid bars and you have to melt them in a pot on an electric heater. Somebody who reworks antique furniture once told me that this stuff is ideal for veneering because it is very strong and won't get resolved by any of the paints and clear coats one might want to apply to the finished veneer.
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Old 27th November 2002, 01:30 PM   #26
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Contact cement is just that -- the two surfaces are joined together and voila. There are non-flammable and flammable contact cements. The non-flammable have chlorine in them -- thus they smell like drycleaning fluid. The flammable cements have solvents like methyl ethyl ketone, higher alcohols, aldehydes etc. in them. Use the latter group of cements out of doors.<p> Here's a trick for laying out large pieces of veneer -- purchase several wooden dowels. Place the dowels at intervals between the two cemented surfaces to be joined. Place the veneer over the substrate on top of the dowels and align two edges. Now, remove the dowels one at a time allowing the veneer to slowly come in contact with the substrate. The veneer will layup on the substrate without any headache.<p>and, oh by the way, there is a special veneer roller, looks like a wallpaper edging roller, but is completely flat and larger. Usually made of a hardwood or hard rubber. These will help you roll out any air pockets between the two surfaces.
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Old 27th November 2002, 01:38 PM   #27
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Jack,

I still don't get it. The contact glue I know must be joined within 5 mm after being applied to both surfaces and then pressed hard.

In the link to veneering earlier in this post, it was said that contact cement should dry for several hours, and no particular emphasis was given on pressing as hard as possible.

Greetings,

Eric
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Old 27th November 2002, 01:48 PM   #28
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you're right, the MMM (Scotch Brand) adhesives have to be joined within a few minutes. You don't have the luxury of time.

hide glue also has to be worked quickly -- you won't be using it for large pieces unless you have a big press.
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Old 28th November 2002, 07:45 PM   #29
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Hmmm, wonder how those other environmentally unfriendly contact cements work...

Do you have any idea what the differences between hide and bone glue are? I am amazed that one works with water, the other with heat, but both settle very fast.

Greetings,

Eric
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Old 16th December 2002, 01:10 PM   #30
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Default hide glue = wallpaper glue?

Maybe hide glue is what we know as wallpaper glue? It comes as white powder or very small flakes (< 1 mm). You dissolve about 20-40 g in 1 liter of water, the stronger solution being for heavy wallpaper or vinyl type wallpapers. There are versions with methylacrylate added for better resistance to humidity.

Is this hide glue? The difference I note is that wallpaper glue usually takes a few hours to dry.

Eric
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