Hi folks. First time poster here, thanks for all the sweet info on this forum 
As a complete n00b, I naturally have at least 27 trillion questions, but i am going to avoid hitting you with them all at once
My goal is to create a pair of small'ish speakers to use 80% television, 20% music. The "smallish" mostly has to do with WAF, as currently we have 2" cubes that she finds cute I suppose -- I find them awful. I am going to worry about a sub at some other point.
I am thinking of a 2-way speaker with 4" woofer. In looking at parts express I came across the HiVi Juniors project (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/hivijuniors/design.html) and have a few questions:
1) anybody made those and have feedback?
2) according to Zaph (hi man, love your site) :
3) From the plans:
4) According to that page, vented boxes should have *more* volume? That seems counter-intuitive. So either I am miss understanding that data, or need a thought adjustment. To me, it seems like a port would allow the speaker to "move" more easily and thus doesn't need as much air space.
5) Trying to use WinISD to calculate the volume myself was somewhat hopeless. I added a new speaker with stats from parts express: Qes(.63) Qms(3.91) Qts(0.52) Fs(56) Vas(.16 ft^3). Hitting save, I get a consistency failure. If I delete Qms... it "calculates" it at 2.978, then I can save --- but uhh... that is not the stat parts express gave. <sigh>. Any idea? And do I need to enter any other data?
6) I don't want to get toooo into crossovers at this point, cuz as a n00b its the scariest part and I am not mentally prepared, but a few minor things:
- According to http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-429.pdf the Hi-Vi B4N has a serious spike at 3k. Don't we need to cross over at some point before that then?
- On the other hand, the chart at http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-429g.pdf looks quite a bit different (no huge spike) -- which makes it challenging to know what to believe So... How do *I* get a fancy chart like those (or from the project site http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/hivijuniors/graph.jpg)? I like them, since it's something very "understandable" to the n00bs -- "I want to measure it and make that line flat as possible". Can I just throw my computer mic in front of the speaker and run some funky free software?
I am super excited about building my first speakers, and hope the experts here can make it a worthwhile experience. Apologies for hitting you guys with 7'ish questions right out of the gate, but hopefully they aren't retarded Thanks in advance.
-Sillyboy
As a complete n00b, I naturally have at least 27 trillion questions, but i am going to avoid hitting you with them all at once
My goal is to create a pair of small'ish speakers to use 80% television, 20% music. The "smallish" mostly has to do with WAF, as currently we have 2" cubes that she finds cute I suppose -- I find them awful. I am going to worry about a sub at some other point.
I am thinking of a 2-way speaker with 4" woofer. In looking at parts express I came across the HiVi Juniors project (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/hivijuniors/design.html) and have a few questions:
1) anybody made those and have feedback?
2) according to Zaph (hi man, love your site) :
As a n00b, I can only vaguely understand what that means, but the HiVi Junior design is for a ported box... should I modify the design to not use a port?
3) From the plans:
Errrr, okay... but according to http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/indexes/sb_guide.html the "Vented Volume cu.ft." is .30 ft. What gives?
4) According to that page, vented boxes should have *more* volume? That seems counter-intuitive. So either I am miss understanding that data, or need a thought adjustment. To me, it seems like a port would allow the speaker to "move" more easily and thus doesn't need as much air space.
5) Trying to use WinISD to calculate the volume myself was somewhat hopeless. I added a new speaker with stats from parts express: Qes(.63) Qms(3.91) Qts(0.52) Fs(56) Vas(.16 ft^3). Hitting save, I get a consistency failure. If I delete Qms... it "calculates" it at 2.978, then I can save --- but uhh... that is not the stat parts express gave. <sigh>. Any idea? And do I need to enter any other data?
6) I don't want to get toooo into crossovers at this point, cuz as a n00b its the scariest part and I am not mentally prepared, but a few minor things:
- According to http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-429.pdf the Hi-Vi B4N has a serious spike at 3k. Don't we need to cross over at some point before that then?
- On the other hand, the chart at http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-429g.pdf looks quite a bit different (no huge spike) -- which makes it challenging to know what to believe
So... How do *I* get a fancy chart like those (or from the project site http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/hivijuniors/graph.jpg)? I like them, since it's something very "understandable" to the n00bs -- "I want to measure it and make that line flat as possible". Can I just throw my computer mic in front of the speaker and run some funky free software?I am super excited about building my first speakers, and hope the experts here can make it a worthwhile experience. Apologies for hitting you guys with 7'ish questions right out of the gate, but hopefully they aren't retarded
Thanks in advance.-Sillyboy
Sillyboy said:Hi folks. First time poster here, thanks for all the sweet info on this forum
As a complete n00b, I naturally have at least 27 trillion questions, but i am going to avoid hitting you with them all at once
My goal is to create a pair of small'ish speakers to use 80% television, 20% music. The "smallish" mostly has to do with WAF, as currently we have 2" cubes that she finds cute I suppose -- I find them awful. I am going to worry about a sub at some other point.
I am thinking of a 2-way speaker with 4" woofer. In looking at parts express I came across the HiVi Juniors project (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/hivijuniors/design.html) and have a few questions:
1) anybody made those and have feedback?
Can't Say I have
Below the tuning point of a ported speaker power handling decreases very rapidly. These speakers will not handle much power below 60hz (This is not so much of an issue if you will be building a sub).
The suggested vented volume there is probably a different alignment. You could try using winISD and simulating different enclosures for yourself (look at amplitude response, and cone excursion for a given power input)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_reflex
Might give a decent description of how a vented box works.
Try deleting other parameters such as Qes or Qts, often in doing so i can get closer results, as long as the parameters are reasonably close i wouldn't worry
Depending on the slope of the crossover there is a region where the outputs from both drivers contribute to the total output of the system. That large peak would be addressed in the crossover with something called a notch filter (Without one a large, nasty peak would appear in the frequency response). Soft coned drivers, eg polypropelyne or paper do not have a peak like this and are simpler to crossover for a beginner.
The peak is still there, different scaling and smoothing has been used to give that chart, thats why it looks a bit different. It would not be difficult to get a chart of your own similar to those, your pc microphone is probably not suitably accurate however. To take acoustic measurements you will need a microphone (the behringer ECM 8000 is an inexpensive example) and a microphone preamp with phantom power (the behringer UB802 would be another example). Then you can use speaker workshop:- On the other hand, the chart at http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-429g.pdf looks quite a bit different (no huge spike) -- which makes it challenging to know what to believe
http://www.audua.com/
If you wish to take this path i would also consider reading the unofficial manual (Warning it is 18mb):
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/SWmanual/SWM2.zip
I'd go for a proven design first, and you might be able to get some more direction if you give budget and size requirements.I am super excited about building my first speakers, and hope the experts here can make it a worthwhile experience. Apologies for hitting you guys with 7'ish questions right out of the gate, but hopefully they aren't retarded
Hi,
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker19.html
I think you'd be a lot better off with the above than the Juniors.
The Juniors crossover does not seem to implement any BSC.
Regarding your questions :
1) no comment.
2) Yes and No. Use a 5" driver sealed in the same box volume.
3) For a driver reflex box volume is ~ 2 x sealed box volume.
4) & 5) no comment.
6) Too true - don't get involved in crossovers unless you are sure.
Zaphs 19 has a far more developed crossover than the Junior.
Zaphs 19 will work fine in a sealed stuffed 3 to 4.5 litre box.
In fact the recommended 0.25 cuft box is really too large IMO
for sealed loading and is only needed for a reflex alignment.
/sreten.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker19.html
I think you'd be a lot better off with the above than the Juniors.
The Juniors crossover does not seem to implement any BSC.
Regarding your questions :
1) no comment.
2) Yes and No. Use a 5" driver sealed in the same box volume.
3) For a driver reflex box volume is ~ 2 x sealed box volume.
4) & 5) no comment.
6) Too true - don't get involved in crossovers unless you are sure.
Zaphs 19 has a far more developed crossover than the Junior.
Zaphs 19 will work fine in a sealed stuffed 3 to 4.5 litre box.
In fact the recommended 0.25 cuft box is really too large IMO
for sealed loading and is only needed for a reflex alignment.
/sreten.Thanks for your reply noodle.
I am not super sure what "power handling" is, but my guess is this: with equivalent power (does this equate directly to volume?) compared to a sealed box... a ported box will cause the speaker to extend farther (at low frequencies), possibly "too far", which could harm the speaker.
That sounds mostly understandable. How does that translate from the theoretical to reality? These speakers are rated at 25 watts RMS, so... with a port, I would have to drive them with... "less" ? Is harming the speaker the only real concern here (I am guessing the designer of this project isn't having any "problems", so I am still stuggling to understand if porting this box was a "bad idea").
re: WinISD -- its really kicking my butt. I can not for the life of me get a volume any NEAR what the project suggests. And I am too n00b to know what "close enough" is in terms of entering the driver params. I would really appreciate it if someone else could try and model this driver. Entering the Q params is problematic for me: Qes(.63) Qms(3.91) Qts(0.52) are the values from parts express, but WinISD wants something like Qes(.63) Qms(2.978) w/ the Qms auto calculated. No idea if 2.978 is close to 3.91.
re: spike at 3k, I don't *think* there was a notch filter in the cross over design from the project, but someone else would have to confirm that. At a minimum, you agree that this is "problematic"
re: measuring equipment.. yikes! Looks like I am spending $50 on a mic, and $60 on a pre-amp? Brutal. But most people who build speakers do this I assume?
re: a proven design: that is probably a good idea However, I really want to dig into this and understand the details, too. If I just follow plans or build a kit, all that I have learned is that I can follow directions.
Thanks a ton for your help.
I am not super sure what "power handling" is, but my guess is this: with equivalent power (does this equate directly to volume?) compared to a sealed box... a ported box will cause the speaker to extend farther (at low frequencies), possibly "too far", which could harm the speaker.
That sounds mostly understandable. How does that translate from the theoretical to reality? These speakers are rated at 25 watts RMS, so... with a port, I would have to drive them with... "less" ? Is harming the speaker the only real concern here (I am guessing the designer of this project isn't having any "problems", so I am still stuggling to understand if porting this box was a "bad idea").
re: WinISD -- its really kicking my butt. I can not for the life of me get a volume any NEAR what the project suggests. And I am too n00b to know what "close enough" is in terms of entering the driver params. I would really appreciate it if someone else could try and model this driver. Entering the Q params is problematic for me: Qes(.63) Qms(3.91) Qts(0.52) are the values from parts express, but WinISD wants something like Qes(.63) Qms(2.978) w/ the Qms auto calculated. No idea if 2.978 is close to 3.91.
re: spike at 3k, I don't *think* there was a notch filter in the cross over design from the project, but someone else would have to confirm that. At a minimum, you agree that this is "problematic"
re: measuring equipment.. yikes! Looks like I am spending $50 on a mic, and $60 on a pre-amp? Brutal. But most people who build speakers do this I assume?
re: a proven design: that is probably a good idea
However, I really want to dig into this and understand the details, too. If I just follow plans or build a kit, all that I have learned is that I can follow directions.Thanks a ton for your help.
Oops, and meant to clarify my goals:
Cheap: maybe $150 max for the pair.
Small: maybe .15 ft^3 (do most peoplen talk liters?)
And naturally sound pretty decent I will likely need to live with them for awhile with a sub, so the more bass the merrier, but given the size I realize there is only so much that can be done. Especially since adding a port (to get more bass) will apparently also require a larger enclosure.
And ya, I have looked at Zaph's #19 -- but I fear the wife will hurt me. These speakers are going to fit on small stands next to the tv (which currently hold tiny cubes), WAF goes down w/ each cubic foot...
Thanks again.
Cheap: maybe $150 max for the pair.
Small: maybe .15 ft^3 (do most peoplen talk liters?)
And naturally sound pretty decent
I will likely need to live with them for awhile with a sub, so the more bass the merrier, but given the size I realize there is only so much that can be done. Especially since adding a port (to get more bass) will apparently also require a larger enclosure.And ya, I have looked at Zaph's #19 -- but I fear the wife will hurt me. These speakers are going to fit on small stands next to the tv (which currently hold tiny cubes), WAF goes down w/ each cubic foot...
Thanks again.
I suggest the Hatt III from Tony Gee
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
I have a speaker similar to hatt-SE with excel W12 4 inch woofer. The sound is excellent and I listen to it without subwoofer since 2 years, no problems here.
Hatt III use the L12, you should get enough bass also. The size is quite small.
F
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
I have a speaker similar to hatt-SE with excel W12 4 inch woofer. The sound is excellent and I listen to it without subwoofer since 2 years, no problems here.
Hatt III use the L12, you should get enough bass also. The size is quite small.
F
North Creek Echo
Hi Sillyboy,
The HATT III looks very nice, but it may be a bit beyond your price point. There is another small kit that I have heard good things about from a few people. The North Creek Echo is $149 for the kit:
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Echo/EchoInfo.htm
The nice thing is, you buy the kit and they send you literally everything except the wood and glue. It's nice because you avoid a lot of the hidden expenses you don't plan for.
-steve
Hi Sillyboy,
The HATT III looks very nice, but it may be a bit beyond your price point. There is another small kit that I have heard good things about from a few people. The North Creek Echo is $149 for the kit:
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Echo/EchoInfo.htm
The nice thing is, you buy the kit and they send you literally everything except the wood and glue. It's nice because you avoid a lot of the hidden expenses you don't plan for.
-steve
Is it my imagination or does everyone think I should clearly start with a kit (or at a minimum a known good project) ?
I suppose I could do that... just not sure how much it will grow my knowledge. Feels like copying someone's math homework (which once you understand is certainly a swell idea, but before then... probably not so good).
Project/Kit recommendations have been coming in the form of 4.5-5" woofers, I am gonna make a hard stand on a 4", as that is already going to make the wife a big grumpy.
And given that sealed volumes are apparently about half that of ported, I am going to target a sealed box. (and clearly need to start working on that sub problem).
So, does anybody know of a good project design w/ a sealed enclosure and 4" woofer? Or... do we get to design our own?
I suppose I could do that... just not sure how much it will grow my knowledge. Feels like copying someone's math homework (which once you understand is certainly a swell idea, but before then... probably not so good
).Project/Kit recommendations have been coming in the form of 4.5-5" woofers, I am gonna make a hard stand on a 4", as that is already going to make the wife a big grumpy.
And given that sealed volumes are apparently about half that of ported, I am going to target a sealed box. (and clearly need to start working on that sub problem).
So, does anybody know of a good project design w/ a sealed enclosure and 4" woofer? Or... do we get to design our own?
Well, yea a kit is the best way to start. I personally never used a kit but without crossover designer programs its very hard to make a decent speaker. They may be a bit complicated for you since your a beginner. The HiVi juniors project isnt bad but i'm also very confused on the graphs and the peak at 3khz. Also i've read that the tweeter is sub-par. Its basically the same as the TN28 which was rated pretty low in zaph's tests. Your computer microphone probably wouldn't have any accuracy measuring the speakers. Going with a 4in driver can be a bit of a compromise since its hard to find many good ones.
I personally am designing a pair of very small speakers that's even smaller than yours. The design is very preliminary. I've been looking at buyout audax 4in woofers and tweeters at madisound. But i'd recommend sticking with a proven design.
http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/audax/index.htm
The tweeters
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=276-152
The woofers
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-145
I'm not sure...about the woofers these seem similar but i think are a different model
I personally am designing a pair of very small speakers that's even smaller than yours. The design is very preliminary. I've been looking at buyout audax 4in woofers and tweeters at madisound. But i'd recommend sticking with a proven design.
http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/audax/index.htm
The tweeters
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=276-152
The woofers
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-145
I'm not sure...about the woofers these seem similar but i think are a different model
I would suggest building from a plan (zaph's 19 does look good), or building a kit to start off with, simply because your chances of success and initial outlay to get a decent, working set of speakers is much lower if you do so. Buying your own drivers, measurement equipment etc then ending up with a failure wouldn't be nice. If you do want to build and design your own, i would strongly suggest that you use the same drivers as another design, so you can go back, and build that should you not have much luck.
The air inside a speaker box sort of acts like a spring, and helps the driver return to its resting position. Below a vented boxes tuning frequency the air in the box stops acting like a spring. So below the tuning frequency it will require far less power to cause the driver to mechanically break (yellow = 100 watts, green = 50 watts, magenta = 25 watts, white = 12.5watts):
edit: one of the best places to start on a custom design is a subwoofer, less factors to consider than a pair of speakers
Private message me with your email address and i will send you a win isd file
The air inside a speaker box sort of acts like a spring, and helps the driver return to its resting position. Below a vented boxes tuning frequency the air in the box stops acting like a spring. So below the tuning frequency it will require far less power to cause the driver to mechanically break (yellow = 100 watts, green = 50 watts, magenta = 25 watts, white = 12.5watts):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
edit: one of the best places to start on a custom design is a subwoofer, less factors to consider than a pair of speakers
Private message me with your email address and i will send you a win isd file
This is the reason everyone is suggesting a kit, you are not even close to the "design your own stage". Many people read for about a year or more, studying the many different facets of this field and not buy anything, this is what I am doing. I have also been practicing with speaker test software (speaker workshop) and already have testing jigs and microphone etc. (Im testing drivers that I have laying around, tweaking things here and there)
My advice, either step back from purchase mode and get familiar with all the different facets of sound or, just by a kit. The kit wont be the end of your speaker building hobby, it will aid in learning. When you get test equipment you can verify your test results with the many posts others have done on an identical kit(pick a well documented one). You can test your raw drivers and use software to design a crossover and compare it to the one that was part of the kit, build it and find out how different topologies affect sound and imaging etc...
I strongly recommend starting with a book like the loudspeaker design cookbook, you will learn all of the basics and some advanced topics as well. Oh and there is some kit type projects in there as well.
As for WAF, get her involved in the aesthetic design of the enclosure, veneer selection, shape, proportions etc. In addition I would get rid of the stands and use tall thin enclosures, you're going to occupy the floor space anyway, might as well be internal volume.
my two cents, thanks for listening.
Sillyboy said:Ya, that W5 woofer does seem perfectly happy in a quite small box!
I am now leaning towards an unported version of Zaph's #19 as you suggest
I sorta wanted to design my own crossover, but I am having enough problem just understanding enclosure sizes
Hi,
IMO you can't go wrong with Zaph's #19. All the information is there
to replicate the design process and as such is relatively easy to modify.
One modification could be tweaking of the crossover to account for
a presumably smaller baffle, but if you are going to use the 3dB BSC
option its probably not going to make much diiference.
/sreten.sreten said:
Hi,
IMO you can't go wrong with Zaph's #19. All the information is there
to replicate the design process and as such is relatively easy to modify.
One modification could be tweaking of the crossover to account for
a presumably smaller baffle, but if you are going to use the 3dB BSC
option its probably not going to make much diiference.
Agreed with the Zaph 19 here, After that if you are still interested in comming up with your own design i'd go for a subwoofer next, lets you concentrate on enclosure design and learn about it.
As I am sure you guys saw in the other thread, I am going to go w/ Zaph #14.
While I would actually prefer the 19's as well, I think the wife will better approve of project 14, simply because they are smaller. And, I figure any investment in keeping the wife happy about this project will pay itself off in more project down the road
Project 14 Baffle: 10"x6.25"
Project 19 Baffle: 12"x7.5"
Not a ton, but... enough.
While I would actually prefer the 19's as well, I think the wife will better approve of project 14, simply because they are smaller. And, I figure any investment in keeping the wife happy about this project will pay itself off in more project down the road
Project 14 Baffle: 10"x6.25"
Project 19 Baffle: 12"x7.5"
Not a ton, but... enough.
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