I know this is a subjective question but I would like some opinions. I am contemplating building a North Creek HT system using their Okara kit. I would use the MTM kit for LCR and the MT for the surrounds. Cost for the most basic system is about $940 not including cabinets (which I would build).
They offer several upgrade paths including upgraded crossover components and upgraded tweeter. Has anyone heard these speakers and know if the upgrades are worth the extra cost? Are there any opinions on the North Creek kits or what other vendors I should consider for comparable performance?
Complicating my decision is the fact that I can get a 62% discount on Polk RTi speakers. A system consisting of 2 RTi8's, 1 CSi5, 2 RTi6's would run about $680 or $730 if I use FXi5's for the surrounds instead of the 6's. Would I be better off just going with the Polks or could I build a much better DIY 5.0 system for roughly the same money? Sorry for the long post but I'm really not sure what direction to take.
Thanks
They offer several upgrade paths including upgraded crossover components and upgraded tweeter. Has anyone heard these speakers and know if the upgrades are worth the extra cost? Are there any opinions on the North Creek kits or what other vendors I should consider for comparable performance?
Complicating my decision is the fact that I can get a 62% discount on Polk RTi speakers. A system consisting of 2 RTi8's, 1 CSi5, 2 RTi6's would run about $680 or $730 if I use FXi5's for the surrounds instead of the 6's. Would I be better off just going with the Polks or could I build a much better DIY 5.0 system for roughly the same money? Sorry for the long post but I'm really not sure what direction to take.
Thanks
MY observant friend Cal is right again:
This group of misfits tends to focus on the audio journey and not so much on the end product.
I for one have four pairs of speakers in my living room and am starting on two more sets. DIY is what it is really all about for most of us.
If you are into learning and DIY then we can likely help. If you are after comparisons to store bought that might be a little tougher. Heck even disucussion about kits might be a bit hard to come by.
Sorry I do not know anything about the kits or the store bought stuff you describe.
Good luck.
This group of misfits tends to focus on the audio journey and not so much on the end product.
I for one have four pairs of speakers in my living room and am starting on two more sets. DIY is what it is really all about for most of us.
If you are into learning and DIY then we can likely help. If you are after comparisons to store bought that might be a little tougher. Heck even disucussion about kits might be a bit hard to come by.
Sorry I do not know anything about the kits or the store bought stuff you describe.
Good luck.
I think a good quarter of us here don't really like DIY all that much but simply do it to get great speakers that meet one's tastes and do it for cheap. That said, if you pick a nice DIY design to build, you'll get great value and quality. Recently, some of my favorite bands have gotten custom speaker builders to build DIY speaker designs for them and they've been quoted to be surprised by how good the speakers sounded (specifically designs using Dayton Reference or Seas Excel metal drivers). However, many (most) DIY designs are terrible.
cotdt said:
Mr. cotdt,
I suppose that you can document your assertion that "a good quarter" of us here don't really like DIY?
As for your last statement that: "many (most) DIY designs are terrible", is a statement that you need to expand on to gain any credibility. As I'm not aware of "any" positive contributions that you've supplied to this or any other venue, I'm afraid that you must shoulder the burden of proof.
Back to the real thread:
Like SCD above, I'm more into exploring the possibilities, enjoying the journey, than actually trying to reach a predetermined goal. I've gotten as much satisfaction modifying my Radio Shack Minimus 7's as designing a unique design. However, I do maintain several commercial speakers just for comparison, but find that I enjoy my DIY speakers a lot more. Before my wife put her foot down, I had 11 pairs of speakers in our living room.
Best Regards,
TerryO
How about this. I walk into an audio store and ask if I can take those speakers home and listen to them for a day. If I don't like them I'll bring them back and take home another pair to listen and this'll happen over and over again.
Think that'll happen? Yet, that's exactly what I get a chance to experience.
Think that'll happen? Yet, that's exactly what I get a chance to experience.
I own a pair of rt55i Polks. They are one of only three commercial designs I have ever owned. I always liked Polks from the days when I worked in a small town stereo shop in the mid seventies. I picked these up about a year ago because the price was very nice and they looked promising. Right away I didn't care for the perfomance compared to what I've been able to do so far DIY. I don't have a lot of testing gear so I cannot be really fair here, but they were classically "big box store" sounding - like they were tuned to impress in a warm big bloated lush overstuffed living room with a sound to match.
I took them apart out of curiosity. I was VERY disappointed with the construction and quality of speaker and crossover components. Pretty dark blue tinted poly woofers with a decent rubber surround, but inside were the flimsiest stamped baskets I've seen in a long time. The dome tweeter looked even worse - all lightweight plastic with a neodymium sized magnet, but it's not neodymium. No decent sealing of components to baffle. Just kind of thrown together looking.
The replacement prices for these components are breathtaking (I called and asked). As a diy'er I'm used to getting three times this quality for half this price. Ultra thin gauge internal wiring. A lightweight cardboard port tube was actually rattling around inside of one of the cabinets. I discovered that it was pressed into it's hole in the baffle and held in place with a rubber ring - very easily knocked loose. These are definitely NOT your father's Polks.
What bothered me most was the very glaring difference between the visible quality of the cabinet, finish, mounting posts, and drivers of this system, and what I discovered to be the real innards being paid for.
Strikes me as dishonest. DIY has spoiled me from ever going commercial again - at least in the under 1000 dollar price range.
I guess I'll be rolling my own for a while yet.
It seems that DIY and "commercial" are losing their boundaries anymore. Much out there, such as Polk Audio, is definitively "commercial" - but there are increasing numbers of hybrid offerings, from such as North Creek, that blur the distinction. You're not going blind into the madisound catalog and doing the whole kit yourself.
Given those two choices however, I'd say that expecting much much more for your money from North Creek than from Polk today would be a very safe bet.
I took them apart out of curiosity. I was VERY disappointed with the construction and quality of speaker and crossover components. Pretty dark blue tinted poly woofers with a decent rubber surround, but inside were the flimsiest stamped baskets I've seen in a long time. The dome tweeter looked even worse - all lightweight plastic with a neodymium sized magnet, but it's not neodymium. No decent sealing of components to baffle. Just kind of thrown together looking.
The replacement prices for these components are breathtaking (I called and asked). As a diy'er I'm used to getting three times this quality for half this price. Ultra thin gauge internal wiring. A lightweight cardboard port tube was actually rattling around inside of one of the cabinets. I discovered that it was pressed into it's hole in the baffle and held in place with a rubber ring - very easily knocked loose. These are definitely NOT your father's Polks.
What bothered me most was the very glaring difference between the visible quality of the cabinet, finish, mounting posts, and drivers of this system, and what I discovered to be the real innards being paid for.
Strikes me as dishonest. DIY has spoiled me from ever going commercial again - at least in the under 1000 dollar price range.
I guess I'll be rolling my own for a while yet.
It seems that DIY and "commercial" are losing their boundaries anymore. Much out there, such as Polk Audio, is definitively "commercial" - but there are increasing numbers of hybrid offerings, from such as North Creek, that blur the distinction. You're not going blind into the madisound catalog and doing the whole kit yourself.
Given those two choices however, I'd say that expecting much much more for your money from North Creek than from Polk today would be a very safe bet.
bluebeard said:
I couldn't agree more with most of what you've said.
The last statement is certainly true, and North Creek isn't the only one offering superior value.
I have to disagree with your statement about "the under 1000 dollar price range". My take on it is that the least expensive range is the area that is tough to beat a commercial design. Economies of scale, heavy discounts for volume purchases, etc., all weigh in favor of the commercial brand. They tend to sell more speakers, and their profit margin may be less but is offset by sheer volume.
Last week I happened to be over at a well known driver designer's shop and while shooting the breeze I noticed that he had a very expensive looking speaker sitting in the corner. Anyhow, this fellow explained that the speaker belonged to a friend of his and he was designing a new crossover for it. The gist of it was, that this well known $6000 speaker used some of the cheapest electrolitic caps and crap inductors around. Components so cheap that even TerryO would be reluctant to use them! Now I know that he was either exaggerating or the quality of the parts was pretty sad indeed:^)
Now I tend to use cheap drivers and parts and have had some success, but I spend a fair amount of time and a lot of experimenting and modding to get there. At the low end of the scale, used speakers can be had for mere pennies on the dollar and can offer superior sound for your money if you're looking to just purchase.
Be warned, DIY is very addictive!
Best Regards,
TerryO
cotdt
cotdt, it is unfair and misleading to present a design you adjudge to be imperfect as representative of "many (most) DIY designs". This is part of the journey the DIYer goes on: discovering what makes and breaks a design. So, from me, just a few pointers:
1) You are technically correct to assert that the crossover point in your example is suboptimal, but that does not mean that the final product did not satisfy to the builder.
2) DIYers soon learn by their mistakes (the journey), so I would not expect a builder to repeat his/her errors.
3) The kit that psu80 is considering is far from imperfect in that it is designed by a seasoned and well-respected loudspeaker designer
4) Lighten up: we want to grow the community, not chase prospective members away ;-)
cotdt, it is unfair and misleading to present a design you adjudge to be imperfect as representative of "many (most) DIY designs". This is part of the journey the DIYer goes on: discovering what makes and breaks a design. So, from me, just a few pointers:
1) You are technically correct to assert that the crossover point in your example is suboptimal, but that does not mean that the final product did not satisfy to the builder.
2) DIYers soon learn by their mistakes (the journey), so I would not expect a builder to repeat his/her errors.
3) The kit that psu80 is considering is far from imperfect in that it is designed by a seasoned and well-respected loudspeaker designer
4) Lighten up: we want to grow the community, not chase prospective members away ;-)
sorry i wasn't trying to chase anyone away! originally i was trying to assert that DIY is also about practical things such as value and great sound, rather than only about the love of the hobby, since beginners would like to kill two birds with one stone before really get into the hobby. so it's a good message, and i beleive a true one.
Great discussion
Hello Again PSU80
So we have a range of thoughts. Some of value,some not.
here are a few more thoughts for you to consider:
For + - $1000. you can purchase a very nice set of driver and cross over components.
You have already come to the place where there is an amazing amount of expertise and skill.
Most of the players here are pretty good at explaining things and are keen to help out.
There are lots of options already tried and true right here or on members web pages.
Spend some time reading the various threads and ask yourself a few critical questions about what your expectations are.
Do you really want to DIY or do you want to go the kit route where the details of design have been worked out.
My opinion:
You will likely get a better package with a kit that you will get with store bought. You will likely get even better with DIY it may take a little longer.
So the old addage comes to mind which do you have more of time or money?
Nuff said for now good luck
Hello Again PSU80
So we have a range of thoughts. Some of value,some not.
here are a few more thoughts for you to consider:
For + - $1000. you can purchase a very nice set of driver and cross over components.
You have already come to the place where there is an amazing amount of expertise and skill.
Most of the players here are pretty good at explaining things and are keen to help out.
There are lots of options already tried and true right here or on members web pages.
Spend some time reading the various threads and ask yourself a few critical questions about what your expectations are.
Do you really want to DIY or do you want to go the kit route where the details of design have been worked out.
My opinion:
You will likely get a better package with a kit that you will get with store bought. You will likely get even better with DIY it may take a little longer.
So the old addage comes to mind which do you have more of time or money?
Nuff said for now good luck
PSU80,
The HT sys here and for the last couple of years is similar to what you're considering:
front: RTi6
center: CSi5
surround: FXi5
sub: SW404
Cabled with Cobalt cables and driven from a Pioneer Elite receiver (and taking advantage of auto EQ and TA), it all works impressively well, and for HT I'm satisfied. BUT (you knew there was a but...) I know the pure stereo performance can be improved. I'd had RTi10s in mind all along for the fronts, with the RTi6s demoted to rear fill.
I don't think that's going to happen, now, and mostly because I just recently found this forum. I was into diy decades ago, and I'm amazed at how far things have come. With all the resources available here and around, and appropriate care in execution, you can better most commercial offerings at your chosen price point. For music, I'd like better imaging and more detail, so I'm working on a pure diy front stage, MTMs, bi-amps, active XO, custom DAC.... I expect to be playing with it for some time to come.
That said, I'd still buy the Polk 5.1 again. I think it's a fine HT system, not at all bad for music, and there's a lot to be said for instant gratification, and spousal approval. At the very least, it's also a stable reference for just how much better the diy gear is.
The HT sys here and for the last couple of years is similar to what you're considering:
front: RTi6
center: CSi5
surround: FXi5
sub: SW404
Cabled with Cobalt cables and driven from a Pioneer Elite receiver (and taking advantage of auto EQ and TA), it all works impressively well, and for HT I'm satisfied. BUT (you knew there was a but...) I know the pure stereo performance can be improved. I'd had RTi10s in mind all along for the fronts, with the RTi6s demoted to rear fill.
I don't think that's going to happen, now, and mostly because I just recently found this forum. I was into diy decades ago, and I'm amazed at how far things have come. With all the resources available here and around, and appropriate care in execution, you can better most commercial offerings at your chosen price point. For music, I'd like better imaging and more detail, so I'm working on a pure diy front stage, MTMs, bi-amps, active XO, custom DAC.... I expect to be playing with it for some time to come.
That said, I'd still buy the Polk 5.1 again. I think it's a fine HT system, not at all bad for music, and there's a lot to be said for instant gratification, and spousal approval. At the very least, it's also a stable reference for just how much better the diy gear is.
I have a hard time swallowing this. "I have to disagree with your statement about "the under 1000 dollar price range". My take on it is that the least expensive range is the area that is tough to beat a commercial design. Economies of scale, heavy discounts for volume purchases, etc., all weigh in favor of the commercial brand. They tend to sell more speakers, and their profit margin may be less but is offset by sheer volume. "
Over the years of building DIY i've always compared my DIY speakers to the commercial speakers I've owne(I've owned many sub $1000 speakers and none over that.)In the late 90s I bought a several commercial 8" 2-ways including the rave rewied PSB 500s.These cost me 300+ US at the time.From MCMs catalog I boughta pair of cabinets on closeout for 60 shipped(These were black and wood and rather large for an 8" 2-way),a pair of inverted dome 8" woofer again on closeout for $45 for the pair and pair of titanium domes for 40 for the pair.Including caps and few odds total was under 175.My friends and myself concluded no contest my DIY specials a better speaker than the 500s.(In fact they hit ebay not long after hehe ..so long!)
Now there always closeouts and specials of this kind.And I think anybody on these forums who can hold a power saw steady or soldering iron can do better than most sub $1000 speakers offered in the consumer salons(Ok Best Buy or Tweeters here in the US).As bluebeard pointed out these speakers maybe designed well but are realized on a budget(Can we say cheaply) and most of the price is overhead and corporate profits not value.
Over the years of building DIY i've always compared my DIY speakers to the commercial speakers I've owne(I've owned many sub $1000 speakers and none over that.)In the late 90s I bought a several commercial 8" 2-ways including the rave rewied PSB 500s.These cost me 300+ US at the time.From MCMs catalog I boughta pair of cabinets on closeout for 60 shipped(These were black and wood and rather large for an 8" 2-way),a pair of inverted dome 8" woofer again on closeout for $45 for the pair and pair of titanium domes for 40 for the pair.Including caps and few odds total was under 175.My friends and myself concluded no contest my DIY specials a better speaker than the 500s.(In fact they hit ebay not long after hehe ..so long!)
Now there always closeouts and specials of this kind.And I think anybody on these forums who can hold a power saw steady or soldering iron can do better than most sub $1000 speakers offered in the consumer salons(Ok Best Buy or Tweeters here in the US).As bluebeard pointed out these speakers maybe designed well but are realized on a budget(Can we say cheaply) and most of the price is overhead and corporate profits not value.
What also needs to be considered is buying used DIY drivers, which tend to be 1/2 to 2/3 of the original price. In the under $50 category, Zaph's Hi-Vi minispeakers can't be beat in terms of sound quality. It doesn't matter if you can buy a Sony 3-way tower for $80 a pair if it sounds terrible.
Here is pair I just finished for 100US.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78099
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78099
Attachments
TerryO said:
I need to correct/amend the statement made above. I hadn't realized that the price of MDF had increased and it looks like the system will cost just under $200 USD total.
This is for the complete system; source, preamp, crossover, amps, and speakers with (hopefully) enough left for some Lo-buck Hi-End Cables and ICs.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Having dabbled in both areas I've discovered a couple of things.
The big name brands that get tons of press and are found almost anywhere you go tend to offer considerably less for the money than the majority of Internet only speaker dealers.
There are a couple of companies that offer phenomenal bargains on speakers but most buyers of commercial products will never hear of them. In the world of commercial audio, the successful companies are the ones that can generate the most hype.
If you don't want to DIY, get out of the big box stores, away from the big name brands and start snooping around the world of "underground" audio. (By "underground" I mean the little guys.)
As for DIY, the main reason to get into it is that you love to build things and challenge yourself.
Another reason is that you have the opportunity to build something unique that fits your specific criteria in both sound and appearance.
If all you want is one set of speakers, get a kit. The time and cost involved in designing and building one pair of speakers from scratch is not going to be worth it.
Terry:
I'm looking forward to August 26.
The big name brands that get tons of press and are found almost anywhere you go tend to offer considerably less for the money than the majority of Internet only speaker dealers.
There are a couple of companies that offer phenomenal bargains on speakers but most buyers of commercial products will never hear of them. In the world of commercial audio, the successful companies are the ones that can generate the most hype.
If you don't want to DIY, get out of the big box stores, away from the big name brands and start snooping around the world of "underground" audio. (By "underground" I mean the little guys.)
As for DIY, the main reason to get into it is that you love to build things and challenge yourself.
Another reason is that you have the opportunity to build something unique that fits your specific criteria in both sound and appearance.
If all you want is one set of speakers, get a kit. The time and cost involved in designing and building one pair of speakers from scratch is not going to be worth it.
Terry:
I'm looking forward to August 26.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.