Veneering the Ariel

[poobah]

My beef with oil stain is two fold. First and most important, it comprimises the adhesion of subsequent coatings. Depending on the material used and the thickness of the build, you can literally peel the clear coat off in sheets.

This problem is most acute with thick films where glass finishes are required. I would guess that when the film grows in thickness, its tensile strength goes beyond that of the peel strength. For guys that are going to do a high-build finish, adhesion is paramount to success.

The problems with adhesion were confirmed by the techs at Sadolin Paints... their opinion? Oil based stains = consumer friendly = forgiving = poor superstrate adhesion = leaching into the superstrate = polluting superstrate cure chemistry = bad ju ju.

Second, I SUSPECT (as stated before) that oil based stains, or at least the ones I used, comprimise the adhesion of PVA. I don't KNOW this... but after having to strip burl veneer down to the substrate for a total redo (more than once), I opted to forgo the risk and use stains that dried faster... aninlines or lacquers. Remember, the veneers might wind up as thin as 5 or 10 mils by the time they are sanded smooth. The problem went away... proof?... HELL no... suspicion... you betcha.

My point in giving advice to anyone is to err on the side of success. Oil based stains present a risk to high build finishes, and they are easily avoided by finding and using professional products.

[infinia]

I suspect the problems wth PVA and using oil stains maybe due to using the thin veneers. The PVA could saturate the veneer making its presence known at the money side. The problem exists for both types of stains but the water based ones would tend to dilute the effect. I believe using a thicker veneer looks better to begin with. (for example look at wood flooring products). I'm sure your advice is sound for most, esp for beginner veneering. I just think it would be a shame that DIY people would shy away from exploring other techniques. I'm sure thick veneers with oil based finishes done with care would blow away most modern finishes.

[poobah]

In the case of burl wood on compound curves, sanding it so thin is often unavoidable. And what you don't correct in the wood you must correct in finish which aggravates (increases) the build.

And yes... there is much to be said for plain old linseed oil... look for the thread, "a lost method of finishing".

One key to the beauty of old finishes was the inherent yellow present in the coating. This adds much to the "look" and the illusion of depth. Sadolin provides clear urethane finishes that are deliberately tinted yellow with UV blockers... really slick. Gives you the look, and protects the wood from UV fading all in one. Fast too, with 2 part urethane you can get a glass build in one day.

Keep in mind, this is a sore spot with me. I spent about 100 hours laying zebrano veneer on a dashboard for a 53 Benz... intense compund curves all over. Stained it (oil), hand painted all the seams with colored laquers to hide the splices, clear coated it. Pulled it off the shelf 6 months later and the veneer had delaminated. Arrggghhhh.

During the process of scraping off all that work, I discovered the clear finish had next to no adhesion. At this point, I quit reading the sparse BS on the backs of cans and started calling the chemists.

[infinia]

Thanks for mentioning the great "lost method of finishing" thread that was my first thread I paticipated in.
I agree with the yellow tint giving to good effect. I usually tint my finish varnishes which make blues/grey and greens pop.
I wonder if other adhesives (heat activated) would be better for thin veneering, allowing oil finishing methods.

[pinkmouse]

High build finishes? You might as well use laminate. Spirit stains, oil and wax, then you get the true beauty of the wood, not some artificially glossy plastic imitation.

[poobah]

Come on Mr. Mouse, you like Rolls Royce / Mercedes wood dontcha? Hey, I'm all for a good oil finish... even Minwax is killer. Definitely the ARMSTRONG method though... and limited protection/durability.

Infinia,

I ultimately experimented with using B stage epoxy films for veneer work. It was killer... water from the steam didn't faze it... nothing will screw with it later... it did take longer to set though. The one problem was that it could ooze through pinholes so you had to be carefull not to smear it 'round the money side of the veneer.

I wouldn't recommend it here 'cause it's hard to find in small quantity... and I'm SURE it causes cancer in California & Europe. PVA works very good... I would just not risk the.... blah blah

[PeteM]

Veneer is plain jane cherry adhesive is "glue film"

Finish is 5 coats of Tung Oil diluted 50/50 white spirit, then wax plenty of it lots of elbow work. I found best waxes are without any petroleum base, brand I used is called Antiquax.

[poobah]

Hey Pete,

what kind of glue film?

[infinia]

Pete
Now that's what I'm talking about. Beautiful work! I'm sure photo's don't do it justice.

[PeteM]

Poobah

I got the "glue film" from here http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/ad.html

I thought this product was universal, it looks like thin dried PVA glue in a sheet.You use the same method with an hot iron these are my very first speakers I actually veneered I can't believe how easy it went