Veneering the Ariel

[poobah]

Cortez,

The coloring fluid you are talking about... in the US, we call it "stain" or "wood stain".

I do NOT like/trust most types of stain:

1) Oil-Based stains seem to be the types that are common for the public and DIY. Maybe the governments OR sellers think that oil-based stains are safer or easier to use? I prefer ANILINE or LAQUER based strains. They are more difficult to: locate, purchase, and apply. BUT, I SUSPECT THAT OIL-BASED STAINS CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PVA GLUE.

2) I often finish with 2 part polyurethanes (part A + part B and work fast). This is chemical reaction. I do not believe this reaction is helped by oil.

3) In ALL directions for painting, it says always, "Remove dust, wax, OIL, etc...

4) How can OIL-based stain be good???????????

5) I have had adhesion problems with veneer/PVA and clear poly finishes... only when using oil-based stains.

6) Professionals, furniture/guitar/speaker factories etc... do not use oil-based stains.

7) Select woods that look "right" without stain. Or, find a laquer or aniline based stain and practice to get your "look".

Just my 2 cents...

[Puggie]

Poobah

I have used danish or teak oil to finish solid wood before and I like the finish (mainly because its easy to do and brings out the woodyness of the wood nicely). is this not a compatible finish with PVA glued veneer. I'm thinking this PVA on both substrates and iron together looks like a great way of veneering but is oiling the veneer afterwards to finish it going to cause the veneer to come away from the MDF cabinet with time?

Thanks.

[poobah]

I believe oil finishes are ok. I just don't trust oil stains. I don't like trapping oil between PVA and a clear finish.

I don't KNOW... I only SUSPECT that it causes problems long term.

Ping SY... he could shed more light on this perhaps.

[chrish]

I used the pva glue and iron method to veneer my ariels. Had a problem with the glue not holding in places and had to inject glue and re-clamp. Eventually it all cme together and I am happy with the result.

[Cortez]

Wow, beautyful work, well done !

Originally posted by chrish
Had a problem with the glue not holding in places

Could you write us please some details, and advices.
What would you do different now, after this project ?
You know, veneering, lacquering, sanding, etc.
And how did you get this finish so smooth and shiny ?
The veneer is joined from more sheets, right ? How did you make the joins ?
I cant see any fails on your work, its really cool, congratulations !

[Puggie]

Originally posted by poobah
I believe oil finishes are ok. I just don't trust oil stains. I don't like trapping oil between PVA and a clear finish.

I don't KNOW... I only SUSPECT that it causes problems long term.

Ping SY... he could shed more light on this perhaps.

That kinda makes sense to me, since with just oil finishing the solvents in the oil can still evaporate out through the wood, where as with a hard finish over the top they cannot. My only worry was the solvents in the oil may attack the PVA sooner but I guess it would be worth trying.


Chrish nice looking work.

[RobPhill33]

I have finished veneering the speakers and they look great. I will post pictures in a few days hopefully. The iron veneering process is truely the diyer's method. Ive now hooked them back up and will wait a month or so before I stain them (make sure no bubbles come back).

Now im in dire need of a subwoofer........ its never suppose to end right?

[infinia]

Originally posted by poobah
Cortez,

I do NOT like/trust most types of stain:

1) Oil-Based stains seem to be the types that are common for the public and DIY. Maybe the governments OR sellers think that oil-based stains are safer or easier to use? I prefer ANILINE or LAQUER based strains. They are more difficult to: locate, purchase, and apply. BUT, I SUSPECT THAT OIL-BASED STAINS CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PVA GLUE.

2) I often finish with 2 part polyurethanes (part A + part B and work fast). This is chemical reaction. I do not believe this reaction is helped by oil.

5) I have had adhesion problems with veneer/PVA and clear poly finishes... only when using oil-based stains.

6) Professionals, furniture/guitar/speaker factories etc... do not use oil-based stains.

1) Oil based stains are good and can have the best results if done properly. The trade off with oil based products is that it takes more time.
2) The most important thing about using oil stains is to stay with oil based lacquers and other finishing techniques like tung oil and boiled linseed. DANGER... Do not mix acrylics and poly's over oil based stains.
If you pick water based stains then stick with acrylic and poly finishes.
3) I'm sure there are NOT any problems with delaminating PVA bonds if they are dry. There may be adhesion issue's if oil stain is done before making wood joints though.
4) I believe the finest custom hardwood furniture's are done with oil based products. This is the ancient way and not too compatible with time saving modern ways.

just my 2 cents

[poobah]

1) Oil based stains are good and can have the best results if done properly.

What is your definition of "best"?

2) The most important thing about using oil stains is to stay with oil based lacquers

What exactly is an oil based lacquer? (non-sense)

3) I'm sure there are NOT any problems with delaminating PVA bonds if they are dry.

I will speculate that you are speculationg here.

4) I believe the finest custom hardwood furniture's are done with oil based products. This is the ancient way and not too compatible with time saving modern ways.

If you equate "finest" with "oldest", you are correct.

Do not mix acrylics and poly's over oil based stains.

Exactly! When you consider the bulk of the materials available to us are acrylics (lacquers and urethanes among others) and poly's it makes sense to avoid oil based stains.

3) In ALL directions for painting, it says always, "Remove dust, wax, OIL, etc...

Omitting this doesn't make it go away.

My advice is based on research, advice from manufacturers, and professional experience making woodwork for automobiles and boats, where UV, temperature, and humidity extremes separate the marginal from the durable.

I think most guys finishing speakers, having spent hundreds on veneers and hours of labor, would rather get it right the first time and minimize risk.

[infinia]

I am responding as a counterpoint to your belief that oil based stains are useless and can be a problem if used. If you have had a bad experience with oil stains used with other products in regards to finishes would it not it be better to find out why, rather than to avoid it all together? And then, above all, you advise others to avoid them as well? Most of my experience is based in regards to oil painting and mixed media in art paintings. My advise is based on extrapolating my knowledge of the creation of art, the conservation of, and the restoration of. As an artist my media of choice is oil paint. My background and training as a engineer led me to investigate the materials used in paint and their applications in art to some depth. When I said oil based finishes could be "best" I meant as resulting in a long lasting, beautiful finish (in the right hands of course), that can lead to such adjectives such as glowing, brilliant, translucent. I also use the term varnish and lacquer in the basis as the final protective layer in an oil painting or in this case the stained veneer of a wooden speaker.
1) PVA's are used a modern glue and sizing for paintings of all media and is recommended for use by most art conservationists.
This is my basis for my belief that PVA is not a problem with oil based stains, or oil paints, acrylic paints, or just about anything else.
2) The number one rule of mixed media and oil painting is not mix acrylics on top of oil based paints. Oils take a long time to dry or cure and if a layer is put on top that does not have similar properties, it can result in many problems like hazing or cracking as you have seem to encountered. The number two rule in oil painting is, as a paint film is added or layered, the oil content on each subsequent layer must be increased to counter cracking problems.