I have a pair of ProAC one clone speakers with a self-powered NHT 1259 subwoofer. The ProAC clone is driven by a home made Leach type amplifier.
When I play Eagle's Hotel California, the sound of drums at the beginning of the music is loud but soft. I have heard the same music on a pair of 6.5 inch closed box speakers without subwoofer. I could feel the drum beat on my body from the speakers.
I really like to recreate the impact that I felt with my speakers. Can someone point a direction?
Do I have to change to closed box speakers to get the impact? Or is there something that I can fine tune with my system?
What really will be nice is that someone can explain what makes drums sound like drums from speakers?
Bing
When I play Eagle's Hotel California, the sound of drums at the beginning of the music is loud but soft. I have heard the same music on a pair of 6.5 inch closed box speakers without subwoofer. I could feel the drum beat on my body from the speakers.
I really like to recreate the impact that I felt with my speakers. Can someone point a direction?
Do I have to change to closed box speakers to get the impact? Or is there something that I can fine tune with my system?
What really will be nice is that someone can explain what makes drums sound like drums from speakers?
Bing
Each instrument has it's own characteristics in part due to harmonics. Harmonics are other frequencies in multiples of 2X from the original that give each instrument or voice a particular "sound"
If you are wondering what to do about it, have you ever tried PA drivers? You'll find them everywhere from on stage to in the dance clubs. A PA woofer might not dip into the depths of the abyss but are fine for most music and are very efficient. They tend to offer you that real gut thumping I think you might be looking for.
I can't comment on your existing system or why you might not be happy with it.
If you are wondering what to do about it, have you ever tried PA drivers? You'll find them everywhere from on stage to in the dance clubs. A PA woofer might not dip into the depths of the abyss but are fine for most music and are very efficient. They tend to offer you that real gut thumping I think you might be looking for.
I can't comment on your existing system or why you might not be happy with it.
You're actually asking a different question from what you think.
"Feeling" the woofer's impact is based on the torso cavity resonance, around 130 Hz in adult males. (I've seen slightly different figures for this, but in the same ballpark. ) Speaker manufacturers have been known to deliberately put a peak there to help their speakers off the showroom floor. 130 Hz is certainly reasonable with a 6.5" sealed system, but is not deep bass of course.
And to the question you asked; a lot of things. Depends on the drum type, and the drumming. For example, rim shots have a very sharp leading edge, and don't require much low frequency ability. Snare drums with the snares engaged go quite high.
Tympani, struck with soft mallets, have a soft attack, and need response down to 40 Hz or less.
Kick drums usually sound "dead", and the deader they sound (without a "bong" component), the more accurate the speaker.
You can get good results with either sealed or ported boxes; it's a question of the complete design, and how well the box design matches the driver characteristics.
As mentioned above, tuning suggestions need a lot more information. Have you experimented with speaker placement yet? That can make quite a bit of difference in both low bass and mid bass. Factors to experiment with are placement in the corners on the floor, up a bit, out from the walls, etc. Thin speaker cable doesn't help bass either, especially if it is long. Good luck, I hope this helped.
"Feeling" the woofer's impact is based on the torso cavity resonance, around 130 Hz in adult males. (I've seen slightly different figures for this, but in the same ballpark. ) Speaker manufacturers have been known to deliberately put a peak there to help their speakers off the showroom floor. 130 Hz is certainly reasonable with a 6.5" sealed system, but is not deep bass of course.
And to the question you asked; a lot of things. Depends on the drum type, and the drumming. For example, rim shots have a very sharp leading edge, and don't require much low frequency ability. Snare drums with the snares engaged go quite high.
Tympani, struck with soft mallets, have a soft attack, and need response down to 40 Hz or less.
Kick drums usually sound "dead", and the deader they sound (without a "bong" component), the more accurate the speaker.
You can get good results with either sealed or ported boxes; it's a question of the complete design, and how well the box design matches the driver characteristics.
As mentioned above, tuning suggestions need a lot more information. Have you experimented with speaker placement yet? That can make quite a bit of difference in both low bass and mid bass. Factors to experiment with are placement in the corners on the floor, up a bit, out from the walls, etc. Thin speaker cable doesn't help bass either, especially if it is long. Good luck, I hope this helped.
Bing Yang said:
This highlits neatly an issue seldom really discussed.
Do you want an accurate sounding setup or a pleasing setup?
If you want an accurate setup, what you should be looking for is the gut feeling (or lack thereoff) experienced in a live concert.
Conversely, you can allways process signals from the most basic equalizer tool to more sophisticated digital processors so as to strike the response and coloration that best suits your personal taste, something hardly to be universally endorsed but then your legitimate right to enjoy listening your way.
Rodolfo
Re: Re: What makes drums sound like drums?
I think this is exacly the point here.
Drums are most difficult instrument to reproduce with spekers. They have it all. All the frequencies... Sharp trancients. Lots of energy.
If you really want to test your speakers put tehem next to acustic drum set and play it trough your speakers and acusticly... Even my deaf granmother can heat the diffirence while washing the dishes.
You really CAN NOT have accurate sounding drums because acustic drumsets do not sound flat. There must be a compromice.
ingrast said:
I think this is exacly the point here.
Drums are most difficult instrument to reproduce with spekers. They have it all. All the frequencies... Sharp trancients. Lots of energy.
If you really want to test your speakers put tehem next to acustic drum set and play it trough your speakers and acusticly... Even my deaf granmother can heat the diffirence while washing the dishes.
You really CAN NOT have accurate sounding drums because acustic drumsets do not sound flat. There must be a compromice.
In my experiments the amp also plays a great part here...
I simply can no longer leave an amp standard until I get the "dead" kickdrum clip to couple the air explosively for lack of a better term.... sometimes its as easy as replacing cheap signal caps with quality ones...
BTW my dad was a drummer for 25 years, so I am familiar with the sound of drums to the extreme...
I simply can no longer leave an amp standard until I get the "dead" kickdrum clip to couple the air explosively for lack of a better term.... sometimes its as easy as replacing cheap signal caps with quality ones...
BTW my dad was a drummer for 25 years, so I am familiar with the sound of drums to the extreme...
Hi,
playing drums myself, I know your problem. Here is the sad truth: it is only possible to a degree. Go for speed!
You whole system plays an equal role. You need a fast phonostage/CD-Player/source, proper interconnects, fast amp (tubes may be ok or not, in my case, they are).
I'm currently building the trappo (german only, sorry) which, after a long search, has that what you (and I) need. I heard it, and there is was: the gutskicking snaredrum sound I only heard with real drums so far.
It uses professional drivers for bass, and a tractrix horn for the rest which is virtually free from nasty side-effects.
But, as said, check the rest of your stuff with the speakers you like to see if it delivers the speed.
Rüdiger
playing drums myself, I know your problem. Here is the sad truth: it is only possible to a degree. Go for speed!
You whole system plays an equal role. You need a fast phonostage/CD-Player/source, proper interconnects, fast amp (tubes may be ok or not, in my case, they are).
I'm currently building the trappo (german only, sorry) which, after a long search, has that what you (and I) need. I heard it, and there is was: the gutskicking snaredrum sound I only heard with real drums so far.
It uses professional drivers for bass, and a tractrix horn for the rest which is virtually free from nasty side-effects.
But, as said, check the rest of your stuff with the speakers you like to see if it delivers the speed.
Rüdiger
In the Eagles album, Hell Freezes Over, Hotel California was recorded live. The drum piece in question was a kick drum recorded near field and had a lot of amplification. It's been said that the audience experienced this kick in the chest feeling. This is one reason this particular track makes such a good reference piece for testing speakers.
I used it when designing and installing my 4-way active system in my car. While not loud, when that drum hits you definitely feel it. To get that level of detail I had to work very hard (fab'ing metal) to seal my doors so my 6" mid-bass would hit hard. This drum doesn't "kick" from the sub although some of the sound certainly is heard in the lower freqs.
The answer to the original question is that you need a very fast, accurate response in the 100-300hz region. Pay attention to reflections that might cause cancellation too. You can get good results sealed or ported, but good results with a a sealed enclosure will be easier (note I didn't say better).
-Ben
I used it when designing and installing my 4-way active system in my car. While not loud, when that drum hits you definitely feel it. To get that level of detail I had to work very hard (fab'ing metal) to seal my doors so my 6" mid-bass would hit hard. This drum doesn't "kick" from the sub although some of the sound certainly is heard in the lower freqs.
The answer to the original question is that you need a very fast, accurate response in the 100-300hz region. Pay attention to reflections that might cause cancellation too. You can get good results sealed or ported, but good results with a a sealed enclosure will be easier (note I didn't say better).
-Ben
Member
Joined 2003
Have you checked frequency response at your listening position in the crossover range between the sub and main speakers? You might have a dip in response if one of the crossover frequencies is not set correctly or the speakers out of phase at crossover. As others have mentioned, that is a very important range for drums. Measurement is the best way of knowing.
Bing Yang said:
What XO point between the Proac clone and the sub?
Do you have phase control on your self powered subs? If not, get a 300uF~600uF 100V non-polarized cap and put it in series with the amp output and the sub driver and let us know how it sounds. It's going to be hard to diagnos remotely.
The key is the phase relationship between the main and the sub. If the relationship is not right, the timing of the initial beat and the continued pressure is not matched, therefore it doesn't feel right.
Another thing to test is to reverse the polarity of only the sub. Then try only the Proac clone, the both and see how the sound varies.
These are just the simple things you can do.
TRANSIENT RESPONSE! is what is misssing from most audiophile speakers i have listened to. some of the most expensive speakers sound smooth and warm and all of that while listening to classical or Jazz. but they always dissapointed me when playing rock. I mean anyone that has ever stood next to a snare drum when a drummer hits it knows that its SHARP, its loud, it makes you jump and flinch. Same with a triangle. but played back through speakers and that all goes away.
That is, until i listend to Hales! Paul Hales got it right. I spent a great deal of time listening to everything i could. and the Hales Revelation 3's beat everything. While the Rev 3's are not perfect. As Paul Hales put it "While the Rev3s's dont do anything really right, its more of that they dont do anything really wrong". and that was a really good way of putting it. Its the things that speakers do wrong that we notice. anyway, i dont know what his magic secret is, but he got it right.
I think its the closed box for one. very low distortion in the bass and gobs and gobs of bass! No subwoofers needed with the Revelation 3's. and the imaging is unbelievable!
Again a statement from Paul Hales left me thinking. He talked about why he chose closed box designs and said "A speaker designer spends all this time tring to build a stiff, ridged, well damped box that doesnt resonate. then why would he then choose to design in a big fat resonance by adding a tuned port?".
I listened to quite a few speakers and none of them had the bass right after hearing the Rev 3's. none. I listened to the $70,000 JM Labs grand Utopia's and while the mids and highs were much silkier, the bass wasnt as good. Listening to stand up bass on the JM's sounded like they strings were covered in wool. where as on the Hales, you could literally hear the players finger print groves sliding against the string windings. much much clearer.
But you have to use a BIG Solid state amp. the Hales definitly eat the power. and Tubes just dont have the current required to really make these speakers shine. and foget ever trying to run these off of any reciever! I would reccomend at least a 200 watt per channel solid state amp. something that has some serious bottom end control. a Bryston 4B really brought out the bottom better then any amp i have tried yet. but made the top a bit brittle. the Soundcraftsmen cubes make the top great but no bottom. I am currently using a Conrad Johnson MF-2200 and is is a comprimise of everything so far.
P.A. speakers, while horrible in many ways. They have tighter suspensions for massive power handling. and this, i think gives them a slight edge in the transients. They can make Kick drums sound like a wet cardboard box sometimes but the tighter suspensions get the transients better for some things.
I wish i knew what Paul Hales was up too these days. He was at QSC building speakers for a while. and those are amazing. even the prototype boxes i listend to a few years ago were amazing! He has since left QSC and the only word i could get out of the factory was "He left to build speakers for people that have more money then God" what that exactly means, i dont know. Maybe Bill Gates or Paul Allen plan on getting into the speaker market??? (hmm maybe i should buy some Microsoft stock?)
That is, until i listend to Hales! Paul Hales got it right. I spent a great deal of time listening to everything i could. and the Hales Revelation 3's beat everything. While the Rev 3's are not perfect. As Paul Hales put it "While the Rev3s's dont do anything really right, its more of that they dont do anything really wrong". and that was a really good way of putting it. Its the things that speakers do wrong that we notice. anyway, i dont know what his magic secret is, but he got it right.
I think its the closed box for one. very low distortion in the bass and gobs and gobs of bass! No subwoofers needed with the Revelation 3's. and the imaging is unbelievable!
Again a statement from Paul Hales left me thinking. He talked about why he chose closed box designs and said "A speaker designer spends all this time tring to build a stiff, ridged, well damped box that doesnt resonate. then why would he then choose to design in a big fat resonance by adding a tuned port?".
I listened to quite a few speakers and none of them had the bass right after hearing the Rev 3's. none. I listened to the $70,000 JM Labs grand Utopia's and while the mids and highs were much silkier, the bass wasnt as good. Listening to stand up bass on the JM's sounded like they strings were covered in wool. where as on the Hales, you could literally hear the players finger print groves sliding against the string windings. much much clearer.
But you have to use a BIG Solid state amp. the Hales definitly eat the power. and Tubes just dont have the current required to really make these speakers shine. and foget ever trying to run these off of any reciever! I would reccomend at least a 200 watt per channel solid state amp. something that has some serious bottom end control. a Bryston 4B really brought out the bottom better then any amp i have tried yet. but made the top a bit brittle. the Soundcraftsmen cubes make the top great but no bottom. I am currently using a Conrad Johnson MF-2200 and is is a comprimise of everything so far.
P.A. speakers, while horrible in many ways. They have tighter suspensions for massive power handling. and this, i think gives them a slight edge in the transients. They can make Kick drums sound like a wet cardboard box sometimes but the tighter suspensions get the transients better for some things.
I wish i knew what Paul Hales was up too these days. He was at QSC building speakers for a while. and those are amazing. even the prototype boxes i listend to a few years ago were amazing! He has since left QSC and the only word i could get out of the factory was "He left to build speakers for people that have more money then God" what that exactly means, i dont know. Maybe Bill Gates or Paul Allen plan on getting into the speaker market??? (hmm maybe i should buy some Microsoft stock?)
Cal Weldon came the closest to your answer.
It's speed, woofer speed, also it has to match the mids and highs. All frequency's are involved. In other words a 2 or 3 - way speaker all the drivers have to match in speed and be in phase.
Drum kick sample by 'atalio'
The spikes you see in the graph represent harmonics.
Read 'Woofer Speed' and if it's going to be a ported box read 'Group
Delay' on this site (scroll down a bit);
http://adireaudio.com/TechInfo.htm
The reason most PA speakers are able to reproduce drum kicks is their low Le (voice coil inductance) the second is their high sensitivity. Also I found the cone material plays a large part, it has to be stiff. I like aluminum cones. Light, quick and very accurate.
I haven't tried kevlar or carbon (someday). Paper is OK also if made by a reputable company (Eminence, Peavy, B&C etc).
Quotes by other DIY'ers searching for 'That' drum kick.
Atalio;
I recorded the bass drum 'above graph' from the beginning of "No Excuses," Alice in Chains Unplugged (not a heavy rock or metal fan).
This is a typical and good sounding kick. It starts at about 100 Hz and ends up at roughly 40 Hz.
One theory to explain this phenomenon would be that when the drum is struck, the surface of the drum tightens momentarily (or very quickly). The drum skin then loosens after the striking element is is no longer at its maximal pressure on the surface, resulting in a response that decreases in frequency over time. Any other theories are welcome.
Note the very high frequency information at the onset.
Todd J. ;
Finally a question *I* can answer. I've mixed over 2700 live shows (of every conceivable description) and engineered scads of CDs.
I'd say the *most* typical I saw was about 22-24 inches, with no front head or a ~10" hole cut in the front head, and heavily stuffed/damped to prevent ringing/feedback, and tuned relatively low/loose. Their typical fundamental is 60-80 hz. The smaller the drum, the higher pitched the slam.
I've even worked with a 14" kick drum whose fundamental was over 100 hz, and a 30" kick with a fundamental of about 40 hz (which was very hard to work with musically). Generally speaking 60-80 hz is what you'll get in 90% of cases.
It's role (which must always be considered) is basically to accentuate the rythm of the bass guitar lines, not replace it, and the bass guitar (assuming rock/pop/country/jazz/blues music) carries the "weight" of the music much deeper. 5-string basses - with an additional low B string - go WAY down there. The kick and the bass guitar must always complement each other musically.
Having said all that, the frequency response of a kick drum is a bell curve centered on the fundamental frequency, and for various reasons (especially the multiple tuning bolts, varying effectiveness of the damping, and the fact that there are usually 1 or 2 other drums physically attached to the kick) includes a broad range of tones both above and below the fundamental resonance. So you can consider a 'typical' kick drum to cover the octave, in a bell curve, centered somewhere between say 45 and 90 hz.
A 60 hz kick will have a softer 'pillowy' feel to it, 80 hz will be powerful & punchy, and higher pitched drums get a bit more 'solid' or 'bonky' sounding. These are my own subjective terms and opinions.
From a web site (I can't find anymore);
"Bass “Kick” Drum
It is hardly ever effective to boost frequencies of a kick drum below about 60 Hz. There are applications on some modern dance music where synthesized drum patches will have dominant energy below 50 Hz. These 20 to 40 Hz fundamentals are the type that easily propagates through the closed windows of automobiles and other structures. These low frequency waves encounter little acoustical attenuation in materials and may be heard from great distances.
For the generalized kick drum application, the “thump” is usually realized in the 60 Hz to 100 Hz range. The definition or “slap” of the kick drum is very essential for its relationship to the bass guitar. Boosting the kick drum at 60 to 100 Hz for the “thump” and boosting 1.5 kHz to 3 kHz for the “slap” will provide a “spectral saddle” for the bass guitar to reside. Boosting bass drum frequencies from 100 Hz to 2 kHz in excess will often cause the kick drum and bass guitar relationship to be very boomy and muddy. Letting the kick drum initial attack in the 1.5 kHz to 3 kHz region start off the event, and letting the bass guitar fresh string harmonics provide the sustaining clarity, provide a pleasing spectral combination."
I define boominess as too much output in the 80 Hz region, compared to other frequency regions. Another problem area is around 120 Hz - 160 Hz, where too much output can make voices "chesty", like they have been smoking three packs a day. Too much output in the 800 Hz region causes voices to sound nasal, and too much at 6 kHz causes excessive sibilance. Woofers are responsible for boominess and chestiness. These artifacts can be caused by several things. One is harmonic distortion from the cone if it is driven hard. Second is harmonic distortion from the amplifier. A third cause is from the big box, usually empty except for the driver, that resonates. It is generally true that smaller drivers are easier to keep under control. That is the main reason the Mirage BPSS-210 uses smaller drivers (10"). However, the Mirage also uses servo-feedback, which further reduces distortion. The high-performance Velodynes use servo-feedback too.
The problem with small drivers comes from needing to move lots of air for the low frequencies, and small drivers don't do that very well. Let's assume that 8", 10", 12", and 15" drivers use all of that dimension for their piston. The 8" has a piston surface area (the flat two-dimensional area facing into the room) of 50.27 square inches, the 10" has 78.54 square inches, the 12" has 113.1 square inches, and the 15" has 176.71 square inches. Even small drivers are capable of 2" peak-to-peak motion these days, so we can just make direct comparisons between these areas. Two 8" drivers are like a single 12", as you said. However, an 8" subwoofer could easily produce boominess if it has significant harmonic distortion. Also, if the amplifier driving it is small, harmonic distortion could arise. Harmonic distortion in subwoofers is not nearly as irritating as harmonic distortion in higher frequency ranges. So, the boominess is often actually desirable, especially for movies, as you have found. But, for music, it is annoying. With a servo-feedback subwoofer, as long as you don't set the crossover any higher than about 60 Hz - 70 Hz, you can turn it up quite loud without hearing any boominess. The ideal situation for me, is to have an 18" driver (254.47 square inches piston surface area), since I hardly have to turn the volume up at all. This keeps the distortion very low. Of course, it sits in a very large box, and this is not practical in all situations. I use a 10" in the living room, also turned down very low, but it is for a music-only system that we don't ever play very loud.
RJ;
That kick you feel is mostly from the 2nd harmonic 100-300hz.
In my driver setup I have 2 - 10" PA speakers to handle 40-80hz. a 15" subwoofer crossed over to 40 hz (mainly to handle the lowest octaves). As Cal said above PA drivers don't go too low. Atop of the 10's I either use MTM's or TMM's or some other combination .
A 100 watt 24db watt plate helps me to crossover to the mids.
On the 15" I have the 240 watt 24db plate amp.
This combination works. It works so well I can tell how tight or loose that bass drum membrane is. Yes, they'res Punch. Cheers!
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/dual_chamber.htm
I used this with my 6,5" and it works wonderful!
I have the feeling when i hear bass from the box that I have a 10"
I used this with my 6,5" and it works wonderful!
I have the feeling when i hear bass from the box that I have a 10"
Isn't the question more to do with the compression applied to drums when recorded rather than the speakers abilities ?
ie : it's the recording that sounds flat / lifeless etc, not the system. Drum dynamics possibly exceed the dynamic range of CD ?
Rob.
EDIT: Just read original post again, so ignore me .
ie : it's the recording that sounds flat / lifeless etc, not the system. Drum dynamics possibly exceed the dynamic range of CD ?
Rob.
EDIT: Just read original post again, so ignore me
."A speaker designer spends all this time tring to build a stiff, ridged, well damped box that doesnt resonate. then why would he then choose to design in a big fat resonance by adding a tuned port?".
This is disingenuous. A well designed ported speaker's resonance is every bit as welol damped as the driver/sealed box resonance, as evidenced by flatness of response.
"They have tighter suspensions for massive power handling."
There is no relation between suspension and power handling, i.e., there are 15" PA (40 Hz Fs) and home sub drivers (18 Hz Fs) with the same power handling.
Power handling is determined by the motor and design.
This is disingenuous. A well designed ported speaker's resonance is every bit as welol damped as the driver/sealed box resonance, as evidenced by flatness of response.
"They have tighter suspensions for massive power handling."
There is no relation between suspension and power handling, i.e., there are 15" PA (40 Hz Fs) and home sub drivers (18 Hz Fs) with the same power handling.
Power handling is determined by the motor and design.
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