Hi,
Qts = Qes*Qms/(Qes+Qms) as 1/Qts = 1/Qes+1/Qms.
The Morel brand is very good and they are in fact clones of Dynaudio drivers.
If they fit the cutout and they are installed well, no-one would know
that they are replacement drivers. There is also the possibility that
they could work in your 2-ways. If you buy them for the 3-ways
where they should work, you could try them in the 2 ways also.
I'd say you could recoup 1/2 their cost by selling the dynaudio's
to open baffle fans, a pair per side as 0.5 ways for more bass
would be a tempting proposition for them.
/sreten.
Qts = Qes*Qms/(Qes+Qms) as 1/Qts = 1/Qes+1/Qms.
The Morel brand is very good and they are in fact clones of Dynaudio drivers.
If they fit the cutout and they are installed well, no-one would know
that they are replacement drivers. There is also the possibility that
they could work in your 2-ways. If you buy them for the 3-ways
where they should work, you could try them in the 2 ways also.
I'd say you could recoup 1/2 their cost by selling the dynaudio's
to open baffle fans, a pair per side as 0.5 ways for more bass
would be a tempting proposition for them.
/sreten.sreten said:Hi,
Qts = Qes*Qms/(Qes+Qms) as 1/Qts = 1/Qes+1/Qms.
The Morel brand is very good and they are in fact clones of Dynaudio drivers.
If they fit the cutout and they are installed well, no-one would know that they are replacement drivers.
There is also the possibility that they could work in your 2-ways. If you buy them for the 3-ways where they should work, you could try them in the 2 ways also.
I'd say you could recoup 1/2 their cost by selling the dynaudio's
to open baffle fans, a pair per side as 0.5 ways for more bass
would be a tempting proposition for them.
Thank you very much dear Mr. Sreten.
Maybe I am trivial now but considering that Qts accounts for both Qes and Qms could a designer rely only on the value of Qts to select the best driver?
I mean the lower the Qts the better the driver.
Or am I missing anything?
And from what I understand a good Qts is usually around 0,4.
Thank you so much again.
Kind regards,
beppe
Well, you can't really base a driver's 'goodness' on Qts alone, fs, Re, sensitivity, etc, as you know should be taken into account as well. For open baffle fans such as I, a Qts typically of 0.5-0.8 is acceptable for bass drivers in open baffles.
As an aside, wouldn't beppe have to redesign the crossover for the Monacor or 'better' Dynaudio driver? Unless Re and impedance at fs are similar, very close, then he'd just run into cone control issues again. Perhaps, even, introduce phase/frequency response anomilies. Sorry, if someone mentioned this already, but I'm just saying that it may not be a "drop-in".
As an aside, wouldn't beppe have to redesign the crossover for the Monacor or 'better' Dynaudio driver? Unless Re and impedance at fs are similar, very close, then he'd just run into cone control issues again. Perhaps, even, introduce phase/frequency response anomilies. Sorry, if someone mentioned this already, but I'm just saying that it may not be a "drop-in".
Hi,
As ever its not that simple.
You can have a very low Fs, low Qts and huge Vas.
In any reasonable sized box the Qts value would not be relevant,
its the new Qtc value that is relevant, which you want to be around
0.6 to 0.8 for a sealed box, and around 0.5 to 0.6 for a sealed box
volume that you are going to reflex.
The ratio of Vas to your box volume is critical in interpreting Qts.
/sreten.
As ever its not that simple.
You can have a very low Fs, low Qts and huge Vas.
In any reasonable sized box the Qts value would not be relevant,
its the new Qtc value that is relevant, which you want to be around
0.6 to 0.8 for a sealed box, and around 0.5 to 0.6 for a sealed box
volume that you are going to reflex.
The ratio of Vas to your box volume is critical in interpreting Qts.
/sreten.Bose(o) said:
Hi,
I presume you mean Morel not Dynaudio.
The short answer is no - the longer answer is being covered by a seperate thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77656
/sreten.redunzelizer said:
phase_accurate said:
You're absolutely right. If ever going active with this woofer, or equalizing the whole speaker, IMHO a Linkwitz-Transform would be the only reasonable way to go. Even in case said L-T would just be partial, like simply "notching out" the high Qtb down to a desired operating value. The problem of missing cone stiffness although will remain as long as this driver is mounted into such a "tiny" box. As stated, thinking in sizes of (almost) "hundreds" of liters even *with* some L-T would help a lot with acoustic performance.
BTW, Speaking of that "evil" 17W75: The only way I found to handle this driver was a Transmission Line brutally tuning down the high resonance frequency while at the same time heavily damping it at low frequencies. Not that elegant, not at all recommended in general, but in that case doing the job. The 17W75s were there, so something serious had to be done about it.
Another effect concerning any of these troublesome drivers is break in and resting(!) behaviour. I have experienced that many Dynaudios of this kind require intense if not brute break in (square wave 15-30Hz, min. 24 hrs at a few volts, beware, that's loud!). After resting for a few hours, suspension would already become stiffer again, accordingly T-S parameters soon shifted "out of range". Thus not opereating for a couple of days/weeks will require these drivers to be (partially) broken in again.
Now this nasty "break in / rest" behaviour will have severe consequences for your speaker design. Any active solution, relying on given (trusted?) T-S-params will *only* have desired effect for drivers in full "broken in operating status". Otherwise there always will be troublesome frequency & resonance mismatches with the "cold" speaker. This effect we were to observe even within one day of non-operation.
On the other hand, any "passive" solutions, like enforcing driver behaviour by a Transmission Line or Variovent enclosure will be way less sensitive to this effect. The latter Variovent being the least complicated solution of any in this context. The TL being the most effective, since it fully utilizes this driver's actual talents. It's your own choice which way to go, but don't complain about "worse drivers", if some of these unwanted and ugly effects are purely based on "lack of engineering".
You decide, but I hope I was able to give you some reasonable arguments!
regards
Dear Peppe,
An example to understand why a speaker made for classical music is not that good to play pop music, is like using a racing car as a family car. It is good, ok, but it cannot do the job and vice versa.
And somebody should wonder why the revolution did not ignited.
That is because every body is happy.
Classical music lovers using flat frequency response speakers, like to discover the details in a Hendrix album and they do not miss the bit at all.
On the other hand, pop music lovers who like the bit of their colored speakers, when they play some classical, usually on weekend mornings at the hangover of an overnight drinking, they are not in a mood to make listening tests. Coffee evaluation is in priority.
Anyway I think you have two choices.
First, if you want to be involved in speaker building is better to start with a book like "Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual" by David B. Weems or/and "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason.
Second, if you want a faster solution, try visiting hifi shops with a CD of your favorite music you know well and get a good experience which will help you to decide, if you will replace your speakers and by what.
Good luck.
An example to understand why a speaker made for classical music is not that good to play pop music, is like using a racing car as a family car. It is good, ok, but it cannot do the job and vice versa.
And somebody should wonder why the revolution did not ignited.
That is because every body is happy.
Classical music lovers using flat frequency response speakers, like to discover the details in a Hendrix album and they do not miss the bit at all.
On the other hand, pop music lovers who like the bit of their colored speakers, when they play some classical, usually on weekend mornings at the hangover of an overnight drinking, they are not in a mood to make listening tests. Coffee evaluation is in priority.
Anyway I think you have two choices.
First, if you want to be involved in speaker building is better to start with a book like "Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual" by David B. Weems or/and "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason.
Second, if you want a faster solution, try visiting hifi shops with a CD of your favorite music you know well and get a good experience which will help you to decide, if you will replace your speakers and by what.
Good luck.
sreten said:Hi,
As ever its not that simple.
You can have a very low Fs, low Qts and huge Vas.
In any reasonable sized box the Qts value would not be relevant,
Its the new Qtc value that is relevant, which you want to be around 0.6 to 0.8 for a sealed box, and around 0.5 to 0.6 for a sealed box volume that you are going to reflex.
The ratio of Vas to your box volume is critical in interpreting Qts.
Thank you again Mr. Sreten.
I suppose that Qts, Qtc and Vas are correlated in some way.
So the final target is Qtc.
I have a long way to go I am afraid before trying any mods.
Kind regards,
beppe
redunzelizer said:You're absolutely right.
If ever going active with this woofer, or equalizing the whole speaker, IMHO a Linkwitz-Transform would be the only reasonable way to go.
...
You decide, but I hope I was able to give you some reasonable arguments!
regards
Thank you Sir for your kind and valuable advice.
I am sorry but I am very uneducated in the field.
Nevertheless I will keep your comments as reference.
Kind regards,
beppe
fiak said:Dear Peppe,
An example to understand why a speaker made for classical music is not that good to play pop music, is like using a racing car as a family car.
It is good, ok, but it cannot do the job and vice versa.
...
First, if you want to be involved in speaker building is better to start with a book like "Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual" by David B. Weems or/and "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason.
Second, if you want a faster solution, try visiting hifi shops with a CD of your favorite music you know well and get a good experience which will help you to decide, if you will replace your speakers and by what.
Good luck.
Dear Sir,
thank you for your reply.
If I understand well there are speakers for rock/pop and and for classical.
So I have to decide wich way to go.
I hoped for a "universal" speaker but it seems impossible then.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
beppe61 said:
Dear beppe,
While there are many speakers out there, actually designed for sounding well with either rock/pop *or* classical *or* whatever tracks by intention, I want to hereby inform you that there are also speakers intended for reproduction, in particular of any music.
Please bear in mind that whenever chosing a speaker (design) carrying a specific sound (or alltoo characteristic behaviour) suited for a certain kind of music only, you are in fact allowing (or even seeking?) multiple tons of larger and smaller errors. Anyone is free to do so as long as he is fully aware that such "sound design" is just playing cheap tricks (and sometimes even very expensive ones!) on the listener to provide the desired sound effects.
IMO The actual desicion you will have to take is a different one:
- Will I want a "loudspeaker" with coloring, artefacts and errors that just sounds "the nicest" to me with my favorite music but fail to comfort me when stepping out of the glasshouse?
or:
- Will I want a fair "electro-acoustic transducer", reproducing any signals the best possible way for given budget, room and effort?
In whatever way you decide, your decision will be right as long as it fits your personal needs and taste (and probably the WAF...). And when going for any such "loudspeaker with sound" it should be clearly declared as pure personal preference only! But please do not rely on the (mis)information that speakers are always built for a certain type of music. This simply is not true.
So, these in fact would be your true alternatives, I'd say...
kind regards
redunzelizer said:
Dear Sir,
thank you so much for your very kind and precious advice.
1) Well, this is a very good news and my sincere hope.
I listen to very different kinds of music so I need a speaker that can be called "universal".
2) Definitely option 2b ! I do not like music with "make-up" at all.
I like speakers that can convey a sense of reality to the listener.
Listening should be a kind of virtual reality (maybe I am exaggerating here to explain myself).
3) This is indeed a recurrent opinion: speakers for classical and speakers for rock.
Anyway I would like to understand better which are the qualities
that make a speaker to be good for rock.
High Qts maybe? low distortion at high SPLs?
But these kind of qualities are not good also for classic music?
Maybe I am missing something, as usual.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
I will give a second example.
Fifteen years ago I made a pair of speakers for my brother, using KEF's B110 and T33 in Voight tapered pipes. I filled them with enough polyester dumping material, as to have a smooth impedance curve.
The sound was fine for me, but my brother thought that they sounded somewhat shy at the bass. At that time he was on pop music, without much experience in good sound. I removed some dumping material, as to alter the bass pattern and made him satisfied. About two years ago he switched to classical and as you can imagine, I had to reinstall the dumping material.
This kind of differences I mean.
As I saw your drivers are above than average and it is a pity to throw them away, in a way, if you are just not experienced enough to judge them.
Last, if you want to learn about Q etc it is better to get some books, because speaker building and acoustics are much more complicated than someone would imagine.
Especialy Q is such a complex term, that you actually feell it than understand it.
Regards
fiak
Fifteen years ago I made a pair of speakers for my brother, using KEF's B110 and T33 in Voight tapered pipes. I filled them with enough polyester dumping material, as to have a smooth impedance curve.
The sound was fine for me, but my brother thought that they sounded somewhat shy at the bass. At that time he was on pop music, without much experience in good sound. I removed some dumping material, as to alter the bass pattern and made him satisfied. About two years ago he switched to classical and as you can imagine, I had to reinstall the dumping material.
This kind of differences I mean.
As I saw your drivers are above than average and it is a pity to throw them away, in a way, if you are just not experienced enough to judge them.
Last, if you want to learn about Q etc it is better to get some books, because speaker building and acoustics are much more complicated than someone would imagine.
Especialy Q is such a complex term, that you actually feell it than understand it.
Regards
fiak
Hi tinitus,
Well, I guess that generally it is very difficult even for an experienced, to make successful modifications on a reliable company loudspeaker.
That is why my advice, -and I do not mean that it is the only one-, is to get some experience with other speakers and then decide.
Also if he wants to learn about them, it is better to start from letter "a", studying by himself, because asking questions will take him a lot of time and come up with a lot of gaps.
Regards
fiak
Well, I guess that generally it is very difficult even for an experienced, to make successful modifications on a reliable company loudspeaker.
That is why my advice, -and I do not mean that it is the only one-, is to get some experience with other speakers and then decide.
Also if he wants to learn about them, it is better to start from letter "a", studying by himself, because asking questions will take him a lot of time and come up with a lot of gaps.
Regards
fiak
I don't see a problem if one is "notching" the speaker's response. One isn't asking for more power requirements by padding down the peak that is experienced with his drivers/enclosure combination, instead, the speakers will require less power with EQ.
I think it is also an even further undertaking to consider learning room treaments when beppe is still learning loudspeakers already. I also believe room treatments are out of the scope of this thread. Good points though, and of course the room shall never be ignored, ever.
I think it is also an even further undertaking to consider learning room treaments when beppe is still learning loudspeakers already. I also believe room treatments are out of the scope of this thread. Good points though, and of course the room shall never be ignored, ever.
It's funny to see how the first thing that people blames is the amplifier when things doesn't sound as desired. It's also funny to see that the real problem when that happens is by far not the amplifier, but the own enclosure/system designer that is not skilled enough to "drive" a hard speaker (and not even skilled enough to check the Qts before purchasing the drivers!!).
Drivers with such a high Qts are extremely easy to drive for any amplifier, as the impedance is high, but are indeed very hard to use in any configuration other than open or infinite baffles.
I would suggest adding some negative output impedance to the amplifier at low frequencies to reduce Qts, but this is not a trivial task either as it involves positive feedback and it may easily lead to oscillation in case of any slight implementation error.
Drivers with such a high Qts are extremely easy to drive for any amplifier, as the impedance is high, but are indeed very hard to use in any configuration other than open or infinite baffles.
I would suggest adding some negative output impedance to the amplifier at low frequencies to reduce Qts, but this is not a trivial task either as it involves positive feedback and it may easily lead to oscillation in case of any slight implementation error.
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