Dayton Series II and Pioneer 8" fullrange idea

[prerunnerv6]

I'm looking to invest about $300 towards a DIY floor standing project. The goal is to have a speaker set that will give me a decent listening experience at home, but can be loud enough to used with my other speakers at medium sized parties. (Think along the lines of Cerwin-Vega.) I will be getting help building the cabinets.

The end impedance needs to be 8ohms. The speakers will be getting about 150watts x 2 rms at least. I want enough bass that will be enjoyable without a sub. This is for music only.

I'm considering using the Dayton Series II 12"

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-120

and the Pioneer 8" fullrange.Pioneer 8" Fullrange

I will use a piezo tweeter to round off the high end.

Crossover can be a simple 1st order 6db setup. X-over about 200-300 hz.

Would these drivers be able to work well together for my stated purposes? Any recommendations on how to proceed? Ported or sealed?

Thanks

 

[rcavictim]

Try and find a pair of 12C01P coaxials by Selenium or the 15C01P's that may still be available at PartsExpress. Place in a BR enclosure. These drivers are high efficiency 98 dB/1w, come with a built on crossover and can handle a lot of power as they are designed for pro sound applications. No foam surround to fail either. They are sometimes on sale and when they are they will meet your budget.

Good quality driver at a great price IMO. They could easily become your main party speakers and have the sensitivity to run on low power tube amps.

I have a pair of the 12's and put them in massive 50Hz front horns in my home theater. Those horns would adequately power a full sized movie theater no problem.

 

[prerunnerv6]

rcavictim, that seems like a great idea. I remember when PE used to carry them. The only problem is that I've been searching the Internet for them and keep coming up with zero.

So are there any other suggestions?

I will ask this...when it comes to pro audio speakers, I notice that their xmax is usually low. Won't this limit the amount of bass from the speaker, or not?

 

[RJ]

This link should help on that Pioneeer/Piezo idea;
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYBX16.html

I will ask this...when it comes to pro audio speakers, I notice that their xmax is usually low. Won't this limit the amount of bass from the speaker, or not?

Not at 98db. Music only goes low to about 50hz. Sometimes lower. Hardly at 30hz. They might also be harmonics from bass instruments that go as low as 30hz. Anyways, 40hz is sub-woofer territory.

 

[prerunnerv6]

RJ,

Thanks for the link. That's exactly what I want to do. But, I would like to take that concept and add a stong 12 or maybe 15 inch driver to it, into one enclosure. I'm need just enough to live without a sub. (I'm leaning toward the 12" due to a smaller size. I'm willing to go ported for greater output.)

I need a compromise between SPL and SQ. These speakers will not be playing by themselves. I have two 2-way 10" speakers that are pole mounted. So this new system will have some help.

As a comparison, I want to build something that will AT LEAST compare to the Cerwin-Vega LS or new E line...3-way towers. The CV's were a compromise betweeen hi-fi and pa (if needed).

Any further suggestions or input? Thanks.

 

[RJ]

Too bad it's got to be 8 ohms. These are on sale at PE of which I'm ordering 2 today to make my own Cerwin Vega clones;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-395

The 8 ohm version;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-410

Has a higher Qts which means a bigger box....

 

[prerunnerv6]

RJ, what's your plan for the CV clone?

 

[acoustixman]

I will ask this...when it comes to pro audio speakers, I notice that their xmax is usually low. Won't this limit the amount of bass from the speaker, or not?

At low frequency the coil can get tossed through the gap at low frequency easily enough, but there will be some compressive distortion as the field is attenuated at high excursions (twice each cycle). This is probably even-order or tube-like distortion, though I have never studied it quantitatively. If this is truly the case, the distortion is of a "musical" nature (not to be praising distortion, but it's not like cone breakup).

The bigger problem I see is with useful upper bandwidth being reduced by intermodulation. While the coil is out-of-gap during bass excursions, it cannot provide reproduction of superposed high frequency information, except in the highly compressed (attenuated) form. This can be seen experimentally as a muting effect if you use your fingers to displace a woofer during playback. You can feel it stop making any effort at all when you've pushed it far enough in. (This is not orthodox treatment of speakers and not a recommended practice.)

While I am a great proponent of transient response (infinite baffle), the 4th order alignments [generally] maintain minimal coil excursion as Helmholtz resonators, but intermodulation may be as well reduced by low crossover points. I would say low-Xmax dictates low demanded bandwidth or reduced SPL; not necessarily bad...

Happy listening!

 

[RJ]

The tweeter driver & lens;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-235
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-310

The 8" Mid
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-384

And the 15";
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-395

Until I get the drivers and box built I will then figure out the crossover.
Right now it looks like 500 and 1800 hz.

Also, the box will look like a Marshall amp.
I'm going to buy this bag;
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=549350

Cut out the amp and logo and glue it to 1/4" board and spray with polyurethane. Two l-pads will be placed on the amp part and the logo will be glued to the driver box.

The box looks to be 4 or 4.5 cu. ft and tuned to 55 hz.
This'll put a little bump at 65 hz to give kick drums and bass guitars in Rock & Roll a good push. This'll sacrifice some lower bass which isn't really prevalent in Rock recordings. in fact, a lot of my rock collection that part of the frequency range is compressed by sound engineers.

Cheers.........

 

[RJ]

The Box!!!

18Wx42Hx14D so far and maybe two ports...

Oh Yeah, gotta find a couple number 11 labels and glue them to the volume knob!!!

 

[rcavictim]

rcavictim, that seems like a great idea. I remember when PE used to carry them. The only problem is that I've been searching the Internet for them and keep coming up with zero.

So are there any other suggestions?

I will ask this...when it comes to pro audio speakers, I notice that their xmax is usually low. Won't this limit the amount of bass from the speaker, or not?

I just had a look at the PE website and it appears that the 15" Selenium coaxials have now also disappeared. I knew the 12's went some time ago. I sure am glad I got mine when I did. No idea where to find any other than ebay and putting want ads on the audio websites.

The use of my 12's in a horn loads the cone and it hardly moves on bass so x-max is not an issue. I'd like to try these Seleniums someday in a regular enclosure. I have an excellent pair of vintage Goodman 12'ers (Audiom 60's) that I think would do well in these huge horns. They sound really smooth up to about 5K in open air testing. and are high efficiency 15 ohm, great for low power tube amp. Sorry for the ramble.

 

[prerunnerv6]

RJ, all I can say is.....sweet!

About pro audio speaker x-max...So what I'm getting is that in PA, great x-max is not needed for impressive bass. Is that due to the accordian edge that is found on PA speakers? Or do most PA speakers simply are not used to hit the 30's hz?

Car and home subs normally use large xmax to get low. (Generalization I know.) Is this because they are being used to go lower than is required in PA.

Further, can I get at least decent SQ with using PA drivers at home? Again, I want a balance. Something I can use at home for music (not HT), and something I can use with my other PA speakers.

This information will be helpful.

 

[RJ]

My 15" should be able to take up to 75 watts with an SPL of 117 db all the way down to 45 hz.
Below that and the ported box goes below resonance.
Hopefully the accordian edge will keep it from destroying itself.
A pic of an unloaded woofer, the bottom woofer depicts what is happening to the port. In essence the port becomes a hole and the woofer has no air behind it to act as a spring.

I seriously doubt I'll ever play it at a 117 db.
About all I can take for a short time is 110 db.
Most probably only use 1 watt and play it around 95 - 100 db.
About 8 - 10 feet away it should be in the low 90's....
Which is still quite loud. On my system right now I only listen between 75 - 85 db. 85 db would be the peaks and/or crescendos (loud passages).
Below 40 hz is what I call serious sub-woofer territory. You can build a two or three way that'll do 25 or 35 hz and up but at this frequency even a 15" cone will be seriously pumping its piston.
Even though a lot of people dismiss the Doppler effect to music quality, I continually find that when I relieve a midbass driver from low bass duty in an MTM setup, the midrange improves dramatically.
If you want low bass, build a serious sub and don't skimp on the drivers and amplifier power...
A lot of people will recommend a couple Quattro 15's, each driven by 240 watt plate amps...Cheer...

 

[prerunnerv6]

Thanks for all of the input, everyone.

Sounds like I need to do some re-thinking. My 10" 2-ways PA's are using the Dayton 10" Classic woofer and a 4x10 horn. They sound good, but could use more volume. For my given budget, I could upgrade the 10" drivers and re-use the Dayton Classics for the second project.

I could put the Dayton 10" Classic w/ the Pioneer 8" full range in a sealed enclosure. Similar sensitivity and power handling. Probably wouldn't be a bad little setup.

The two PA upgrades I was considering are:

Pioneer http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-094

AND

Eminence http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-403

AND

Goldwood http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-380

The Pioneer is more sensistive and seems to go lower. The Eminence has higher power handling and goes higher...thus taking some load off of my mid/horn. Goldwood seems about in the same range. Since all are already more sensitive than the Daytons, I would want the one with better SQ.

Any thoughts?

If I go this route, I'll just have to save up for a sub.

 

[prerunnerv6]

Additional Information

My 2-way box dimensions are 15W x 21H x 9D. Wall thickness is about .75".

2 ports about 1.75" diameter and about 2" deep. (I can adjust the ports if needed.)

Thanks.

 

[acoustixman]

The Pioneer Driver:

It has a very low Qts and seeks an acoustic suspension alignment. If you seal the ports on your box and put one into it, you'll have f(-3dB) at around 180Hz and Qtc of about 0.363. This would be suited for guitar or bass use with no boom, and will sound thin.

That being said, if you leave the ports open, you'll have a gentle approach over a couple hundred Hz down to -3dB at about 100Hz, with a "bass shelf" extending from there to 70Hz. Followed by sudden assumption of -24dB/octave rolloff. The curves will cross at 42Hz, -15dB. Below there, the sealed alignment will be stronger, but this is the 1/32 power point.

I am attempting to attach the graphs my spreadsheet generated...

edit: typo
edit again: added thought

 

[acoustixman]

The Eminence Driver needs a much bigger box to handle transients respectably.

In your box (4th order ports open, 2nd order ports sealed):

 

[acoustixman]

I think I'd go with the Goldwood sealed or Pioneer ported.

The Qts has it in your box (if sealed) at a nice quick alignment between Bessel and [closer to] Butterworth (Qtc about 0.67).

The ports have it tuned a little sharp though. It picks up a boom around 100Hz. If you tune it down with longer ports, the response starts to resemble the sealed alignment, and will lose control of the driver at resonance (you'll exceed Xmax at high SPL). A bigger box = a different story.

Happy shopping!

edit: "or pioneer..."

Goldwood in your box:

 

[RJ]

Yep, it looks like that Eminence woof is out.
Here's what I got and it was the same as Acoustimaxman.
I was surprised to see the Goldwood do so well. Both the Goldwood and Pioneer drivers ar a good fit in your box.
Gray - Goldwood Ported
Green - Goldwood Sealed
Yellow - Pioneer Ported

 

[prerunnerv6]

EXCELLENT Information

Thanks for the input. You guys are great.

The Pioneer looks like the best bet. It will fade off about 70hz, which will be fine because if I use a sub and x-over about 60-70hz, I'll be good. It's flat out the most efficient of the three which puts it closer to the mid/tweet efficiency. Even though it has the lowest power handling of the three, that shouldn't be a problem. Especially considering I had been using the Dayton 10" Classic, which has only 70rms rating....and it seemed fine.


A few follow ups:

1. I may have misunderstood the graphs from PE, but how HIGH is the Pioneer going to effectively play? It says up to 3,000hz. I was going to play it safe around 2,500 for a x-over point. Would this be reasonable or am I safe using a x-over that has a 3,000 hz x-over point? I want to take as much stress of the mid/tweeter as possible.

2. Will I be ok w/ the Pioneer at higher SPL? Will I still keep some decent woofer control even though I will be slightly overpowering it? (My 150rms will be exceeding the Pioneer 140 max).

3. Any thought on the SQ of the Pioneer driver? Music, vocals..."


Thanks.