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Old 17th February 2006, 06:31 PM   #11
Zaph is offline Zaph  United States
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Default Re: Plastic cones or paper cones?

Quote:
Originally posted by beppe61
I read somewhere that the best material for a cone is still paper
That's a little too broad of a statement. The best cone material is only as good as the motor and suspension components it is attached to, which is then only as good as the system the driver is designed into.

A Seas Excel with a magnesium cone is every bit as much state of the art as a Scan Speak Revelator with a paper cone. When the design of a Seas Excel system takes into consideration the particular distortion profile of the metal cone, the results can be as good or better than the best system with a paper cone.

Many prefer softer cones because they are easier to implement into a system. Or more specifically, it's easier to avoid a poor sounding system with a paper cone when the distortion profile of a driver is not measured and taken into consideration of a design.

All IMHO,

John
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Old 17th February 2006, 08:32 PM   #12
Vikash is offline Vikash  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Audiophilenoob
I would take a stiff pressed paper cone over any poly cone I know about...

for lots of reasons but mostly dampening
Dampening is a form of distortion in cones. The flipside being you avoid dealing with the breakup modes inherent in more rigid cones at the other end of the scale (metal). I haven't heard the level of micro details found in stiff diaphrams such as ESL's or the best metal cones in any paper cone midrange.
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Old 17th February 2006, 11:49 PM   #13
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Paper is just much easier to work with if you're a manufacturer.
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Old 18th February 2006, 01:29 AM   #14
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"Dampening is a form of distortion in cones"

How so?


"I haven't heard the level of micro details found in stiff diaphrams such as ESL's or the best metal cones in any paper cone midrange."

That's from insufficiebt stiffness, not damping.

If you stiffness is insufficient , then it's much better to have damped resonances than resonant peaks in the passband.
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Old 18th February 2006, 01:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by myhrrhleine
Paper is just much easier to work with if you're a manufacturer.

cone manufacturer maybe... for a speaker manufacturer that's not true at all
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Old 18th February 2006, 05:19 AM   #16
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I think the answer, as in so much of audio, lives in the details. As mentioned above, pure paper is pretty rare, especially in good drivers. Most paper is some sort of composite, and may include carbon fiber, like the Scanspeak woofers, (which I like a lot).

On the other hand, when Dynaudio drivers were widely considered the best available for the amateur, the cones were filled polypropylene. The best driver I've ever tried, and which am using in the current (interminable) project is the ATI 4" mid, also filled polyprope. Extraordinary detail, dynamic, and clean. And expensive. But they also show a great deal of attention to frame, motor and suspension details.

I think it's a bit easier to make consistent cones from polyprope, which tend to be good at self damping, and therefore have a tendency (not universal) to have smooth rolloffs on the high end.

But in the end, you just have to listen to the driver you're interested in. There is no substitute.

I think this holds for much if not all of audio; good and bad sounding tube and solid state gear, good and bad sounding high and low feedback designs, and so on. Success depends a lot on the designer being familier with the strengths and pitfalls of his preferred approach, and maximizing the former and adroitly avoiding the latter.
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Old 18th February 2006, 12:54 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Code
i like the sound of my MF MC4's which have plastic cones,
but then i have nothing to compare them to. pointless post?

Hi,

not all all. The cones are TPX, apparently very difficult to work with.

TPX was claimed to have outstanding stiffness vs damping properties.

/sreten.
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Old 18th February 2006, 07:31 PM   #18
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by noah katz
"Dampening is a form of distortion in cones"

How so?


"I haven't heard the level of micro details found in stiff diaphrams such as ESL's or the best metal cones in any paper cone midrange."

That's from insufficiebt stiffness, not damping.

If you stiffness is insufficient , then it's much better to have damped resonances than resonant peaks in the passband.

This gets back to the "ribbon" thread..no?

dampening as it relates to material loss vs. signal loss is a form of distortion (a subtractive one) - on the other hand it will likely control resonances that add distortion.

and the esl is a good comparison.. for a given surface area esl's are usually "stiffer", but it isn't stiffness that is adding to "detail", but rather a lack of dampening that isn't subtracting detail (due to the low mass), AND a low operating excursion level. Note that "stiffness" is analagous to pistonic operation which is more linear - however esl's often have a very non-pistonic operation (though not as bad as a distributed mode device like the NXT panels).

Unfortunetly esl's typically have very poor "total/overall" dampening so its likely that distortion will be high and could well add to the subjective sense of detail via higher order distortion (3rd). In particular you often have severe panel resonances and surface mode distortion - this usually gives the upper midrange and treble a "chalky" sound.
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Old 19th February 2006, 11:34 AM   #19
beppe61 is offline beppe61  Italy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Code

i like the sound of my MF MC4's which have plastic cones,
but then i have nothing to compare them to.
pointless post?
Dear Sir,

I do not think your post is pointless.
Maybe you have all the reasons.
It is better to stick with a nice speaker and live with it without so many problems.

Thank you and kind regards,
beppe
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Old 19th February 2006, 11:37 AM   #20
beppe61 is offline beppe61  Italy
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Default Re: Re: Plastic cones or paper cones?

Quote:
Originally posted by Zaph

That's a little too broad of a statement.
The best cone material is only as good as the motor and suspension components it is attached to, which is then only as good as the system the driver is designed into.
...
All IMHO,
John
Dear Sir,

Thanks a lot for your comment.
I see your point perfectly.
There is no a general rule, but case and case.

Kind regards,
bg
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