Perhaps it's a good sign that he's not spending all the valuable time
on the internet rather, staying in the shop building product. Because
he doesn't visit frequently doesn't mean progress is not being made.
ie, I've been cooking up a crazy speaker design for years and
I don't spam my idea on the forum daily
All in good time
on the internet rather, staying in the shop building product. Because
he doesn't visit frequently doesn't mean progress is not being made.
ie, I've been cooking up a crazy speaker design for years and
I don't spam my idea on the forum daily
All in good time
thylantyr said:ie, I've been cooking up a crazy speaker design for years and
I don't spam my idea on the forum daily
Yes, its best to post when you've actually got something to show.
If I were noob and it was a commercial product I was trying to market, then I'd definitely have waited until there was data, measurements and a finished product before showing it.
ShinOBIWAN said:
On the other hand, over time the DIY community develops a
relationship as people become 'friends' and there is nothing
wrong with expressing ideas and showing sneak peaks of
projects in the works. It's called 'trust'. I trust that people
won't mock the idea and you also trust that the claims made
are sincere. Perhaps during the development phase, the product
could be better when the idea is posted and feedback is made,
ie., during the orginally conceptual design of the 6" midwoofer,
I gave him my 2 cents on what I want from a driver, the wishlist
was made.
I would caution those with interest to at least read through this thread before making conclusions based on the presented info. I don't have a dog in the fight, but sometimes it's nice to know what kind of background these things are coming from.
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=238440
I found it enlightening... and more than a little amusing.
P.
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=238440
I found it enlightening... and more than a little amusing.
P.
pneuma said:
OMG this is the funniest thing I've read in a long time...
I almost fell out of my chair at work when they started arguing about resistance of wire of different gauges ....
Reminds me of little kids in a sandbox...
--Chris
[EDIT] Just got to page 8 where Dan Wiggins finds pictures of AudiophileNoob/Feandil and posts links.. OMG even if you enver had a run in with NOOB you gotta read this thread...
pneuma said:
oh, the classic Dan vs. [whomever] debate in the car audio
world, yep... I've seen many of those over the years and
I got to the point where I'm not interested in what is spoken
because there more than meets the eye.
I've been following the unfolding of the drama for months
as we exchange emails once in a while, moreso then, but less
now. I get the impression that he is busy with his DIY driver
project, not only DIY but OEM. I think he has too much on his
plate and is bombarded with projects and it may be catching
up with him. Too many goals and not enough time. I don't fault
him for being ambitious to create drivers from scratch, even
creating his own custom baskets in house, the amount of work
he needs to can drive one crazy. The attempt is sincere though
and even if there is delays, I still wait patiently to see what
product is handcrafted.
One example is Lambda Acoustics, I think it was a 4 year venture,
Nick worked like a dog to make his handcrafted woofers special.
I waited 1.5 years to get his Apollo drivers, lots of them.. In the
end I have a masterpiece which is now a rare driver unless you
have John @ AE tool an Apollo for you at a higher cost.
He took over the Lambda line when Nick called it quits.
So.. sometimes there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
if you wait
thylantyr said:
Sure, like I said, I have no stake in this. However, from my outside opinion, it seems that Feadil (or whatever nic he's using at the moment) has been slightly misleading about his qualifications, age, and ability.
I'm not big on discrimination based on age, but it does seem curious to me when a freshman (or is it sophmore) in college makes these sort of claims with little to no verifiable physical evidence. That combined with the skeptical input of someone well regarded (or at least mildly accomplished) in the audio industry make the whole situation a little suspect.
I'm not claiming vapor-ware, but I definately wouldn't be buying stock just yet.
P.
Zaph said:
I was talking to jim for awhile about it and been trying to finish up our frames
We changed the frame completely based upon interest from individuals for a "beefier frame"
I've kept Jim informed... if you're not interested that's fine...
You just have to understand this delay is 100% based upon going with a completely NEW frame... not a simple task by any stretch
But this delay is longer than I was promised so if you aren't interested that's fine
DIY_newbie said:
you should have laughed... that thread was ridiculous
it turned from a simple TRUTH and physics based debate about VC size, wire gauge... into Dan making wide sweeping statements
and since I to this date never have confirmed the klippel I will do it now
it is real... and what dan said is verifiably false about klippel... klippel does not dip in the BL curve like he stated (let's all guess why he stated that
)... and the reason for the lack of BL curve fit on the y-axis in the 1st quadrant is because the BL curve is not perfectly linear on the back stroke (it is however on the front)... I did not measure this myself as I do not have the analyzer to do it... it was sent to a Canadian friend People assume that Ology has based itself around internet sales but in fact we have not whatsoever... and our first priority still has been getting these to people who are rebadging them etc.
It's easy to use stock frames, surrounds, spiders and such and build a driver... in fact Ology just finished up some 6, 8's and 10" full ranges for OEM to this effect and it only took us 2 weeks for a fully custom design but it used very readily available parts
everything on the Omega is 100% custom from the frame to spiders, to surrounds, to cones, to motors, to magnets, to faradays
And you what most people fail to realize is that we had a prototype done with all of these new components for 2 completely one off speakers with completely different motors in only 7 weeks... Production through industrial standards would then follow 4-6 weeks... but people seem to be flustrated by 2 weeks (though I still don't understand why nobody minds RE has taken around 1.4 years to get their new XXX out from prototype)
while I have the motors I still have not gotten our new frames in and as the design (frame) interactions have not been confirmed with me... I have not sent out the old prototype to anyone, even interested OEMers
To be honest I post these things around the net for DIY's interest's sake not for our sales... and in fact we won't be even selling them direct online anyway and the omega car version won't be sold online ever
And as always people who understand speakers and such can see the nice BS spewed by dan in that thread
I know that we ALL believe that gauge of wire and VC size don't matter when concerned with power handling
beyond that the thread was a waste of my time ... trying to help clear something up and turns into that
thylantyr said:
I can think of many industry celebrities that are very 'late to market'
with their vapor-ware also, but it's ok to give them slack .... because
they are famous
late to market is not really what's happening as far as Ology is concerned
this isn't our only product that we're working on obviously... and me = very very part time with Ology (<8 hours a week doing design and testing for our own products)
subs, tweeters, coaxials, etc etc 7 other patent pending technologies... etc etc. takes up almost all of my time
And admittedly I was on vacation last week
amazingAs far as I'm aware nobody's claimed this speaker is for sale online or in full production... take it as a glimpse into the near future of possibilites (not that it's much compared to some of our other offerings... as far as subs etc)
If you want to go off over here, that's fine... I've been staying out of it, but if you want to geet me involved, I'm more than willing to explain my position here as well...
Audiophilenoob posted
If your source claims that the BL curve is "real", then you're being misled. Klippel will NEVER result in that kind of a curve. Never. It cannot measure those kinds of deviations in the curve, because Klippel does not directly measure BL; rather, it infers the BL (and Cms, and Le) curve versus stroke by measuring applied voltage, SPL, and displacement of the driver when driven with a psuedo-random noise pattern, and back-calculates a set of curves that would match the measured values.
Furthermore, Klippel cannot accurately measure a BL, Cms, or Le curve that extends further than the limits of one of the curves. If your suspension locks up hard at 20mm one way, and your BL is still relatively flat at that point, then Klippel cannot give you an accurate BL curve. It simply does not have enough data to properly fit the BL curve, as it is limited by the Cms. To accurately fit the curve, Klippel (and any curve-fitting software) requires a good amount of data - both in distance from and in quantity of samples - beyond the point of interest. To get a BL curve at 19mm when the suspension locks hard at 20mm is impossible with a Klippel.
Herr Dr. Klippel will confirm this as well; we spent a few hours discussing this very thing just 10 weeks ago at the 2006 CES. Wolfgang confirmed my concern, and stated they are working on clarifying the way this test should be run; as for now, his summation was that if one really understood what was being tested, and how the test was being run, it would be obvious that this is a limitation. The fact that many do not understand it is driving the good Dr. to expound on this limit inside their documentation and instruction.
Now the reason you see dips in many XBL² drivers is that the measurement limits of the Klippel test were too narrow. You need to often open up the suspension measurement limits well past what would normally be a "safe" range. The suspension may be getting highly nonlinear, but that is required to get an accurate BL fit. If you limit your measurements to what is normally "accepted" you do not get enough data about the actual shape of the BL curve, and the result is that the curve-fitting algorithm assumes it's double-humped; it does not converge on the proper measurement. Those with experience running a Klippel and using flat-BL drivers will confirm this. The dip is not a result of the motor; it is an artifact of the measurement system.
And yes, I do have considerable experience not only running a Klippel, but discussing the way it operates with Dr. Klippel and several of his staff, not to mention assisting other companies to set up their Klippel systems.
I stand by my assertion - as presented, the BL curve is not possible from a Klippel. It is a fake curve.
Audiophilenoob posted
Audiophilenoob posted
As far as wire gauge goes, as long as your delivered current is below the long-term fusing current rating of the wire, you have nothing to worry about. A VC wound of 30 AWG copper wire is good for 10A RMS current; for a typical 8 Ohm impedance, you could deliver 550-650W RMS continuous without a worry of fusing the wire. I would assume you understand that. The issue for voice coils isn't the fusing current of the wire (which is the ONLY limitation in terms of power handling that wire gauge has); it is the heat resistance of the epoxies and glues used in the VC, as well as the overall thermal stability of the entire voice coil/former assembly.
So why would you use a larger diameter wire than necessary, from a thermal standpoint? Given a target DCR, you will get the EXACT same power compression from 20AWG wire as you will from 30AWG wire, in terms of dB, as long as you are below the fusing current of both. So why the insistence that wire gauge matters from a power handling standpoint? Care to explain your logic?
Audiophilenoob posted
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®
Audiophilenoob posted
I stand my assertion. If you understood how Klippel runs, you would recognize that sharp corners and bends can NEVER be measured. Klippel is a statistically-fit system, and the displayed results are from curve fits. You cannot "fit" a sharp inflection point; Herr Klippel himself will confirm that!
If your source claims that the BL curve is "real", then you're being misled. Klippel will NEVER result in that kind of a curve. Never. It cannot measure those kinds of deviations in the curve, because Klippel does not directly measure BL; rather, it infers the BL (and Cms, and Le) curve versus stroke by measuring applied voltage, SPL, and displacement of the driver when driven with a psuedo-random noise pattern, and back-calculates a set of curves that would match the measured values.
Furthermore, Klippel cannot accurately measure a BL, Cms, or Le curve that extends further than the limits of one of the curves. If your suspension locks up hard at 20mm one way, and your BL is still relatively flat at that point, then Klippel cannot give you an accurate BL curve. It simply does not have enough data to properly fit the BL curve, as it is limited by the Cms. To accurately fit the curve, Klippel (and any curve-fitting software) requires a good amount of data - both in distance from and in quantity of samples - beyond the point of interest. To get a BL curve at 19mm when the suspension locks hard at 20mm is impossible with a Klippel.
Herr Dr. Klippel will confirm this as well; we spent a few hours discussing this very thing just 10 weeks ago at the 2006 CES. Wolfgang confirmed my concern, and stated they are working on clarifying the way this test should be run; as for now, his summation was that if one really understood what was being tested, and how the test was being run, it would be obvious that this is a limitation. The fact that many do not understand it is driving the good Dr. to expound on this limit inside their documentation and instruction.
Now the reason you see dips in many XBL² drivers is that the measurement limits of the Klippel test were too narrow. You need to often open up the suspension measurement limits well past what would normally be a "safe" range. The suspension may be getting highly nonlinear, but that is required to get an accurate BL fit. If you limit your measurements to what is normally "accepted" you do not get enough data about the actual shape of the BL curve, and the result is that the curve-fitting algorithm assumes it's double-humped; it does not converge on the proper measurement. Those with experience running a Klippel and using flat-BL drivers will confirm this. The dip is not a result of the motor; it is an artifact of the measurement system.
And yes, I do have considerable experience not only running a Klippel, but discussing the way it operates with Dr. Klippel and several of his staff, not to mention assisting other companies to set up their Klippel systems.
I stand by my assertion - as presented, the BL curve is not possible from a Klippel. It is a fake curve.
Audiophilenoob posted
And that BS would be? If I made an error, by all means point it out - I'll be the first to offer a mea culpa!
Audiophilenoob posted
VC size matters; to a massive extent gauge of wire does not. But it's not just the diameter of the voice coil that matters; it's the total surface area of the voice coil (and if thermally conductive the former). To claim a 4" voice coil will handle more power than a 2" voice coil is absurd; you need to know the former material, length, and the length of the winding. It's really no more difficult than that. That was my whole point; you were railing on about the power handling being lower because the VC diameter was smaller, when in fact you were missing the critical point that it is the surface area - diameter AND height - that matters.
As far as wire gauge goes, as long as your delivered current is below the long-term fusing current rating of the wire, you have nothing to worry about. A VC wound of 30 AWG copper wire is good for 10A RMS current; for a typical 8 Ohm impedance, you could deliver 550-650W RMS continuous without a worry of fusing the wire. I would assume you understand that. The issue for voice coils isn't the fusing current of the wire (which is the ONLY limitation in terms of power handling that wire gauge has); it is the heat resistance of the epoxies and glues used in the VC, as well as the overall thermal stability of the entire voice coil/former assembly.
So why would you use a larger diameter wire than necessary, from a thermal standpoint? Given a target DCR, you will get the EXACT same power compression from 20AWG wire as you will from 30AWG wire, in terms of dB, as long as you are below the fusing current of both. So why the insistence that wire gauge matters from a power handling standpoint? Care to explain your logic?
Audiophilenoob posted
No, you just claimed that the preorder was going to start about 4 weeks ago...
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®
Dan:
I'm surprised that your giving time to consider the design on any level. Its fine to defend your drivers on technical aspects but I'm not sure why you've gone to lengths to prove noob wrong on several points? Is it yet another battle of ego's? Noob must be doing something right, right?
I liked the story of David and Goliath.
I'm surprised that your giving time to consider the design on any level. Its fine to defend your drivers on technical aspects but I'm not sure why you've gone to lengths to prove noob wrong on several points? Is it yet another battle of ego's? Noob must be doing something right, right?
I liked the story of David and Goliath.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I didn't post in this thread until I was pulled into it by Audiophilenoob; I've been quiet. However, I stand by my statements about measurements and voice coil design (as put forth in the CarAudioForum thread), and if challenged/called into question will defend them.
I have not addressed any points other than those directly related to Audiophile's statements in this thread regarding my own claims. On purpose; I have kept in on-topic.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®
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