Here's the off-axis measurements made by Zaph:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/offaxis.html
By looking at the measurements you can easily tell why something like NeoCD2.0 is only usable in line arrays. LCY's should do much better and the BG Beo3 and shorter ribbons like G2Si should be atleast acceptable.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/offaxis.html
By looking at the measurements you can easily tell why something like NeoCD2.0 is only usable in line arrays. LCY's should do much better and the BG Beo3 and shorter ribbons like G2Si should be atleast acceptable.
Dude, if I go to Best Buy and Circuit City, and buy every bookshelf and floor standing speaker that costs over $100, and test their frequency responses in an anechoic room, I can guarantee you that 90% of them would fall within parameters that would be considered outstanding by the standards of this forum.
While the majority of it may be particle board chinese junk, the fact remains their engineers have far more expensive and more sophisticated software than you guys have, and this is fundamentally to allow them to build far cheaper designs using lower quality components to sell to tone deaf consumers.
I've learned a lot from Krutke's site, but also learned to take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt. When somebody uses the same testing procedures you are referencing and concludes that a $220 ribbon driver is inferiour to a $30 car tweeter, I naturally have some reservations with both the methods being used, and the conclusions. Also, I've never heard any of Krutke's designs, so I can't comment on them. He's otherwise oddly obsessed with two way designs using cheap drivers, and to be frank, I consider two way speakers to be not good for much else other than playing MP3's on my computer, or gloated over by middle aged audiophiles who prefer dinner music at 80db over anything dynamic.
Good drivers for one thing. Not spending endless hours trying to make a crossover network make a $15 driver sound like a $150 one.
In any respect, I've learned what I needed and that's a good ribbon works very well with an MTM design. I'll likely look into the RAW HT2, which looks promising.
Unfortunately you have taken a particularly hostile, defensive stance with the things I've said, and quite frankly I think you've said some rather caustic, naive things here with respect to the other people on this forum - nothing less than a slap in the face to many of us.
"Dude, if I go to Best Buy and Circuit City, and buy every bookshelf and floor standing speaker that costs over $100, and test their frequency responses in an anechoic room, I can guarantee you that 90% of them would fall within parameters that would be considered outstanding by the standards of this forum."
And just what are the "standards of this forum"?? Frequency respose is but one measurement parameter, and by no means should it be taken as a reference standard for driver performance. Distortion mearurements provide more thorough and revealing information about a driver's quality.
"When somebody uses the same testing procedures you are referencing and concludes that a $220 ribbon driver is inferiour to a $30 car tweeter, I naturally have some reservations with both the methods being used, and the conclusions."
Why? Price and quality do not always correlate, and certainly not linearly. What is wrong with the "methods being used, and the conclusions"? Especially when someone like John K. also LISTENS to the drivers he tests and, as I've said, finds that drivers that measure better invariably also sound better, regardless of price.
As for him using "cheap" drivers in his designs, I don't think that a $70 SEAS aluminum woofer is exactly cheap. He's also tested "expensive" drivers, and used some. When he concludes a $30 SEAS aluminum tweeter sounds and measures better than a $200 silk dome Millenium tweeter by the SAME manufacturer, AND says he would use the aluminum tweet even if the Millenium cost the same, I'm not going to dismiss his methods and conclusions out of hand.
"While the majority of it may be particle board chinese junk, the fact remains their engineers have far more expensive and more sophisticated software than you guys have." This may be true - I don't know - but the software and equipment that is available to the DIYer is still sophisticated enough to help people design and build outstanding lousdpeakers, which often turn out to be superior to commercial designs costing many times more.
"I consider two way speakers to be not good for much else other than playing MP3's on my computer, or gloated over by middle aged audiophiles who prefer dinner music at 80db over anything dynamic. " Wow - this is way oversimplified - and by "middle aged audiophiles" are you referring to people on this forum?
Where does one start? With good drivers of course. But which ones? How do you determine the best driver(s) for your design/goals? By comparing. Listening and measuring - which is why I find Zaph-Audio to be so valuable - his multiple driver tests pack more information than most other sites I can think of.
"Not spending endless hours trying to make a crossover network make a $15 driver sound like a $150 one." I don't think anybody does this. The goal of crossover design is to make a driver/speaker sound as good as possible - to bring out its greatest potential, whatever the price point.
You know what? I don't have any measuring equipment. I have never heard a ribbon driver (and I have NOT recommended against them). Nor have I ever heard one of John K's designs. I have never designed or built a true DIY speaker from scratch. What I HAVE done is read this forum almost daily to learn from people who have more knowledge and experience than I do, and I do so with an open mind, so that when I'm ready to embark on a speaker project I will do so with a treasure trove of information I've gained from this site. Whenever I give "advice" to anyone it's basically referring them to sites like Zaph, where I have gotten so much of my information, so that they can also learn and have more and better tools with which to make decisions about how they will build the best loudspeaker they can.
"Dude, if I go to Best Buy and Circuit City, and buy every bookshelf and floor standing speaker that costs over $100, and test their frequency responses in an anechoic room, I can guarantee you that 90% of them would fall within parameters that would be considered outstanding by the standards of this forum."
And just what are the "standards of this forum"?? Frequency respose is but one measurement parameter, and by no means should it be taken as a reference standard for driver performance. Distortion mearurements provide more thorough and revealing information about a driver's quality.
"When somebody uses the same testing procedures you are referencing and concludes that a $220 ribbon driver is inferiour to a $30 car tweeter, I naturally have some reservations with both the methods being used, and the conclusions."
Why? Price and quality do not always correlate, and certainly not linearly. What is wrong with the "methods being used, and the conclusions"? Especially when someone like John K. also LISTENS to the drivers he tests and, as I've said, finds that drivers that measure better invariably also sound better, regardless of price.
As for him using "cheap" drivers in his designs, I don't think that a $70 SEAS aluminum woofer is exactly cheap. He's also tested "expensive" drivers, and used some. When he concludes a $30 SEAS aluminum tweeter sounds and measures better than a $200 silk dome Millenium tweeter by the SAME manufacturer, AND says he would use the aluminum tweet even if the Millenium cost the same, I'm not going to dismiss his methods and conclusions out of hand.
"While the majority of it may be particle board chinese junk, the fact remains their engineers have far more expensive and more sophisticated software than you guys have." This may be true - I don't know - but the software and equipment that is available to the DIYer is still sophisticated enough to help people design and build outstanding lousdpeakers, which often turn out to be superior to commercial designs costing many times more.
"I consider two way speakers to be not good for much else other than playing MP3's on my computer, or gloated over by middle aged audiophiles who prefer dinner music at 80db over anything dynamic. " Wow - this is way oversimplified - and by "middle aged audiophiles" are you referring to people on this forum?
Where does one start? With good drivers of course. But which ones? How do you determine the best driver(s) for your design/goals? By comparing. Listening and measuring - which is why I find Zaph-Audio to be so valuable - his multiple driver tests pack more information than most other sites I can think of.
"Not spending endless hours trying to make a crossover network make a $15 driver sound like a $150 one." I don't think anybody does this. The goal of crossover design is to make a driver/speaker sound as good as possible - to bring out its greatest potential, whatever the price point.
You know what? I don't have any measuring equipment. I have never heard a ribbon driver (and I have NOT recommended against them). Nor have I ever heard one of John K's designs. I have never designed or built a true DIY speaker from scratch. What I HAVE done is read this forum almost daily to learn from people who have more knowledge and experience than I do, and I do so with an open mind, so that when I'm ready to embark on a speaker project I will do so with a treasure trove of information I've gained from this site. Whenever I give "advice" to anyone it's basically referring them to sites like Zaph, where I have gotten so much of my information, so that they can also learn and have more and better tools with which to make decisions about how they will build the best loudspeaker they can.
Actually, CLC, I thought your response (third one above) was worse. You basically said that frequency response was everything. Frequency response is one piece of data, but hearing has to be the more important facet. I've also viewed those sites, and to tell you the truth, I'm not too fond of them. You have one person taking data and declaring that one tweeter is better than all other tweeters based on one test. I find that a bit hard to believe, particularly since these aren't mounted in any type of cabinetry whatsoever.
Well for who ever is interested. I build these speakers with a locally developed ribbon (dipole) with Morel 5" MW144 in separate enclosures. Crossover is at 900hz (yeah that is correct) I get a real amazing sound and super focussing, the crossover is 6db
The ribbon is engineered in such a way that it also handles the ultra high frequencies.
Freq response 700hz at 6db up to 44Khz
The ribbon is engineered in such a way that it also handles the ultra high frequencies.
Freq response 700hz at 6db up to 44Khz
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