Can a good DIY loudspeaker compete with a factory built speaker when it comes to sound quality? I am tempted to think so, but others say that the DIY enthusiast can never build a speaker as good as a professional could.
For example take a look at the Wilson Watt/Puppy VI. The drivers used are available on the DIY market. Why would we or would we not be able to build a comparable speaker in terms of sound quality?
Another question comes to mind. Are custom made drivers, ordered by loudspeaker system companies from known loudspeaker driver companies, of a higher quality than the ones those companies sell on the DIY market? Also, are self-designed en built loudspeaker drivers from companies like B&W (for example for their top of the range Nautilus 800) better than the ones available to us, DIY’ers?
For example take a look at the Wilson Watt/Puppy VI. The drivers used are available on the DIY market. Why would we or would we not be able to build a comparable speaker in terms of sound quality?
Another question comes to mind. Are custom made drivers, ordered by loudspeaker system companies from known loudspeaker driver companies, of a higher quality than the ones those companies sell on the DIY market? Also, are self-designed en built loudspeaker drivers from companies like B&W (for example for their top of the range Nautilus 800) better than the ones available to us, DIY’ers?
Of course DIY can build as "good" a speaker as any corporation. Read Siegfred Linkwitz website. Moreover, DIY can get much better quality-per-dollar than factory-built, leaning on the collective knowledge gained from the DIY community.
Wilson, Revel, Wisdom, Genesis.....their speakers operate under the same physics as anyone elses. Do they have special drivers...yes, sometimes. Is that all it takes to set them apart from what an engineering and attentive hobbiest can pull together? No.
Inside the most hallowed design group their is a guy (or gal) who has a job running a test bench and listening to results. Those same people exist in the DIY community. There are others who are materials experts. They exist in the DIY community as well. Others are mathmeticians. And, so on.
Besides, no matter what you build or buy....somewhere, someone will have a "better" speaker. Its the nature of the beast.
Ribbon Project
Wilson, Revel, Wisdom, Genesis.....their speakers operate under the same physics as anyone elses. Do they have special drivers...yes, sometimes. Is that all it takes to set them apart from what an engineering and attentive hobbiest can pull together? No.
Inside the most hallowed design group their is a guy (or gal) who has a job running a test bench and listening to results. Those same people exist in the DIY community. There are others who are materials experts. They exist in the DIY community as well. Others are mathmeticians. And, so on.
Besides, no matter what you build or buy....somewhere, someone will have a "better" speaker. Its the nature of the beast.
Ribbon Project
the difference with diy and factory built speakers are the collective goal of the design group.
sure, with diy, you have thousands of diy'ers who are bent on building the perfect loudspeaker and the same can be said about the knowledge available in the community.
But, the one thing the average diy'er can't compete with is the shear prowess of the bigger companies.
They have years of research and technical background. They have means of quicker and more accurate results. A group of individuals working under the same guidelines and goals.
Now I agree that there are some diy projects out there that can compete with the best of the best (though it wouldn't far off to say that the best of the best would a dedicated enthusiast with ALOT of money and time ie: LR) its hard to imagine that any diy would have the time and money to compete on such a broad level that the big guys do.
Keep in mind, however, that without diy there wouldn't a market and a demand for the big guys to try and monopolise. And the biggest reason for diy are for the reasons above;
cost, individualistic design and goals along with an end product that is truly unique in its performance and appeal.
sure, with diy, you have thousands of diy'ers who are bent on building the perfect loudspeaker and the same can be said about the knowledge available in the community.
But, the one thing the average diy'er can't compete with is the shear prowess of the bigger companies.
They have years of research and technical background. They have means of quicker and more accurate results. A group of individuals working under the same guidelines and goals.
Now I agree that there are some diy projects out there that can compete with the best of the best (though it wouldn't far off to say that the best of the best would a dedicated enthusiast with ALOT of money and time ie: LR) its hard to imagine that any diy would have the time and money to compete on such a broad level that the big guys do.
Keep in mind, however, that without diy there wouldn't a market and a demand for the big guys to try and monopolise. And the biggest reason for diy are for the reasons above;
cost, individualistic design and goals along with an end product that is truly unique in its performance and appeal.
Hi there are a few threads with the DIY vs commercial line of talk that you *should* search for before asking the same question.
The "others [who] say that DIY enthusiast can never build a speaker as good as a professional could" are simple naiive in my book, and too stubborn to accept that something could compete with speakers costing 5k or 20k or whatever at a fraction of the price. Perhaps they have bought a pair and can't bare the thought.
You're limited only by you're ability to research, your patience, and your wallet size in DIY (oh, and the patience of your spouse). In commercial designs they have to deal with many worldly compromises - and making a profit is the biggest of them all usually. The one's that compromise less require you to remortgage your property. And then all you've really bought is the bragging rights amongst other magazine readers.
The "others [who] say that DIY enthusiast can never build a speaker as good as a professional could" are simple naiive in my book, and too stubborn to accept that something could compete with speakers costing 5k or 20k or whatever at a fraction of the price. Perhaps they have bought a pair and can't bare the thought.
You're limited only by you're ability to research, your patience, and your wallet size in DIY (oh, and the patience of your spouse). In commercial designs they have to deal with many worldly compromises - and making a profit is the biggest of them all usually. The one's that compromise less require you to remortgage your property. And then all you've really bought is the bragging rights amongst other magazine readers.
Actually, I agree with you. But still I have my doubts if a DIY'er could build a speaker as good as say the B&W Nautilus 800, on which a full team of technicians and designers has worked for a long time. Which DIY speaker do you think could compete with this kind of speaker?
>>EDIT<<
this was a reply to gravison. the other two were posted in the mean time.
>>EDIT<<
this was a reply to gravison. the other two were posted in the mean time.
I'm not sure how you would define better. From what I've been reading recently I would probably consider controled directivity better, which is almost the opposite of the Nautilus. I'm really impressed by the design concepts that Amphion (www.amphion.fi) use.
Anyway, for something that is constructed like the Nautilus see the link below.
http://www.pcpaudio.com/pcpfiles/proyectos_altavoces/Odisea1/Odisea1.html
Anyway, for something that is constructed like the Nautilus see the link below.
http://www.pcpaudio.com/pcpfiles/proyectos_altavoces/Odisea1/Odisea1.html
Sorry, but I don't buy the idea that commercial systems are automatically superior. They are interested in making money -fair play, and I'm not knocking that, don't get me wrong, but not much of the price paid goes into the materials in the speaker. Nor do I buy into the notion that they are necessarily 'better' at designing than some of the gentlemen here. I have a pair of Martin King's ML TQWTs with Fostex FE167E full-range drivers that measue better, and sound better than anything available commercially under £1000 that I've seen or run across. Total cost of the build: £300. I also have a pair of Terry Cain design rear-loaded corner horns for when I want horn-sort of sound, with FF165K full-range units -cost me the same to build. I'm not aware of any commercial horns even near that price, and I can't think of many commercial horns that can deliver full 30Hz energy in-room either. But these can.
The new Krell speakers are a classic case in point: $11,000 worth, but you can buy the same drivers for around $2,000, the crossover components for around $1,000 (tops). And the cabinet materials are unlikely to run to much more than $500-$1,000 depending upon the level of finish you apply. What is more important though is that by going DIY, you get to tailor the response of your speakers to suit your own music, and your own room. When Martin's newworksheets are released, you'll even to a significant extent be able to design a speaker specifically for your room from scratch. And that's not something many commercials will offer!
Best
Scott
The new Krell speakers are a classic case in point: $11,000 worth, but you can buy the same drivers for around $2,000, the crossover components for around $1,000 (tops). And the cabinet materials are unlikely to run to much more than $500-$1,000 depending upon the level of finish you apply. What is more important though is that by going DIY, you get to tailor the response of your speakers to suit your own music, and your own room. When Martin's newworksheets are released, you'll even to a significant extent be able to design a speaker specifically for your room from scratch. And that's not something many commercials will offer!
Best
Scott
..and you can call it unique too 
As Scott has said, it's fair game than manufacturers want to make money, the name of the game in life, and I also think you can put what ever price tag you think it sufficient for the R&D on a commercial design. But by no stretch of [my] imagination does it mean that you can't DIY better.
Also remember there are different states of DIY. Make the cab yourself, to getting a joinery to do it for you based on your specs, etc etc. You can have drivers custom made or modified as some manufacturers do, or use superfluous materials to impress (ahem Corian) etc etc.
The two advantages of going commercial for me are, a) resale value, and b) no research/building effort required. Sound quality (whatever that is) doesn't come into it.
As Scott has said, it's fair game than manufacturers want to make money, the name of the game in life, and I also think you can put what ever price tag you think it sufficient for the R&D on a commercial design. But by no stretch of [my] imagination does it mean that you can't DIY better. Also remember there are different states of DIY. Make the cab yourself, to getting a joinery to do it for you based on your specs, etc etc. You can have drivers custom made or modified as some manufacturers do, or use superfluous materials to impress (ahem Corian) etc etc.
The two advantages of going commercial for me are, a) resale value, and b) no research/building effort required. Sound quality (whatever that is) doesn't come into it.
Inertial, I would love to do a comparison with some top of the bill DIY speakers and a Nautilus 800. However, how on earth am i going to get a pair of either in my place to do it?
I've heard both the 801 and the 802 and thought they sounded really good. Haven't heard the 800's tho.
The best DIY speakers i've heard also sounded amazing, but i can't say which sounded better, for i have not done a direct, A-B comparison.
I've heard both the 801 and the 802 and thought they sounded really good. Haven't heard the 800's tho.The best DIY speakers i've heard also sounded amazing, but i can't say which sounded better, for i have not done a direct, A-B comparison.
Keyser,
I think first indispensable thing a good DIY need is time to "learne" to listen and evalutation hi-fi 2ch music reproduction. IMHO This is not automatic and not democratical ,unfortunately (time,money,opportunity,natural inclination,etc.) .
Good listeners are RARE, IMHO .
You are right about evalutate the single audio component into your room with your well knowed "chain".
But, I am sorry , I not need of A-B direct comparision to evalutate if the whole system sound or not.
Just my personal opinion.
Cheers,
Inertial
I think first indispensable thing a good DIY need is time to "learne" to listen and evalutation hi-fi 2ch music reproduction. IMHO This is not automatic and not democratical ,unfortunately (time,money,opportunity,natural inclination,etc.) .
Good listeners are RARE, IMHO .
You are right about evalutate the single audio component into your room with your well knowed "chain".
But, I am sorry , I not need of A-B direct comparision to evalutate if the whole system sound or not.
Just my personal opinion.
Cheers,
Inertial
i don't mean i need a direct reference to deside if a system sounds good or not, rather that i need to listen to two speakers in one session if i am to decide which of the two i regard as better sounding.
If there is some time (this can be as little as 5 minutes) between listening to the first speaker and the latter, i can't exactly remember how the first sounded. That means i cannot make a good judgement on how the two compare.
If there is some time (this can be as little as 5 minutes) between listening to the first speaker and the latter, i can't exactly remember how the first sounded. That means i cannot make a good judgement on how the two compare.
Nothing whatsoever, which is what makes comparisions utterly pointless, and fundamentally dangerous unless you keep firmly in your mind that it's subjective, and just about your own taste. We all hear in completely different ways, listen to different music, and different things within in the music, and like different presentations. Some like a warm ballance (I do), some like utter neutrality to the recording, some a presetation with so much treble energy it would give me a headache. Who is right? No-one. But I don't think we're going to end up with a very productive debate here, so I'm going to leave off there.
All the best to all & enjoy the music (whatever speakers you listen to!)
Scott
All the best to all & enjoy the music (whatever speakers you listen to!)
Scott
but surely there are objectively definable parameters you can use to qualify a loudspeaker? I think objective measurements usually correlate with the subjective listening impression.
In High-Fidelity a neutral sonic balance should be the design goal. As you say you prefer a warm sounding speaker, but knowing warmth is your personal taste, you agree that it is not true fidelity to the original.
If commercial speakers use drivers of comparable quality, the possible difference should be in the fit and quality of the crossover, and the quality of the enclosure. I think the DIY fanatic can produce boxes as sturdy as the best professional speaker builders can. The professional have greater access to special materials, like Wilson uses in their speakers. That material is said to be very sturdy and non-resonant.
I am not sure if the professional speaker builder can make better crossovers than a well trained DIY’er can.
In High-Fidelity a neutral sonic balance should be the design goal. As you say you prefer a warm sounding speaker, but knowing warmth is your personal taste, you agree that it is not true fidelity to the original.
If commercial speakers use drivers of comparable quality, the possible difference should be in the fit and quality of the crossover, and the quality of the enclosure. I think the DIY fanatic can produce boxes as sturdy as the best professional speaker builders can. The professional have greater access to special materials, like Wilson uses in their speakers. That material is said to be very sturdy and non-resonant.
I am not sure if the professional speaker builder can make better crossovers than a well trained DIY’er can.
Hi,
I started DIY also with that question,
meanwhile I tried fullrange driver, built horns and dipoles.
Today I would say: that is not the point of DIY and it is not cheaper for sure.
I'm able to build speakers that can hardly be bought. There are only a few serious dipole systems on the market. Same applies for fullrange.
If it is about saveing money, I'm sure the price vs. value ratio of some kits is better than of factory speakers. But assembling speaker kits is a total different story and half the fun.
Stephan
I started DIY also with that question,
meanwhile I tried fullrange driver, built horns and dipoles.
Today I would say: that is not the point of DIY and it is not cheaper for sure.
I'm able to build speakers that can hardly be bought. There are only a few serious dipole systems on the market. Same applies for fullrange.
If it is about saveing money, I'm sure the price vs. value ratio of some kits is better than of factory speakers. But assembling speaker kits is a total different story and half the fun
.Stephan
Hi Kyeser,
IMHO the point is maybe you listen "The sounds of instruments", I LOOK IF (very rare)" the instruments are soundings (with their spaces)" !!
Are they sounding togethar or some tend to mask the others?
Can we always SEE They or sometimes not? How many they are?(!)
Are they sonorous ( sonority) ?
Can we understand all the words that singer is ...singing? Are we sure? ( take a good headphones ...)
Is all this only personal taste? I think not, anyway this is my method
and sure others apply the same/similar.
Hi,
Inertial
IMHO the point is maybe you listen "The sounds of instruments", I LOOK IF (very rare)" the instruments are soundings (with their spaces)" !!
Are they sounding togethar or some tend to mask the others?
Can we always SEE They or sometimes not? How many they are?(!)
Are they sonorous ( sonority) ?
Can we understand all the words that singer is ...singing? Are we sure? ( take a good headphones ...)
Is all this only personal taste? I think not, anyway this is my method
and sure others apply the same/similar.
Hi,
Inertial
I have no doubt that DIY can beat commercial on any level. Its all a matter of budget, time and patience.
I've been working on a design now for the best part of a year and whilst it certainly isn't the best available, its a contender for at least half the commercial designs currently available in the world.
I've been working on a design now for the best part of a year and whilst it certainly isn't the best available, its a contender for at least half the commercial designs currently available in the world.
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