My DIY speakers are better than anything available commercially. The reason is simple. I can tailor the sound to my liking while the commercial people are restricted. They will try and get a nice response curve which may or may not appeal to the listener. Now, after many years of listening and building, I know what I want and can go ahead and build it.
My ears don't hear the low end very well so I appreciate the bass boost of a plate amp, it helps "balance" things for me. I also like a rather bright high end, so again I'm free to build that into the design and not have to worry about any EQ.
With that sort of freedom, a commercial product hardly stands a chance. So, who builds the worlds best speakers? I do.
Know who else does? - You.
My ears don't hear the low end very well so I appreciate the bass boost of a plate amp, it helps "balance" things for me. I also like a rather bright high end, so again I'm free to build that into the design and not have to worry about any EQ.
With that sort of freedom, a commercial product hardly stands a chance. So, who builds the worlds best speakers? I do.
Know who else does? - You.
you have a very good free ench 
the thing important about the topic, is that i also believe that DIY can beat commercial speakers anyday, and that 99 % of the people, either diyist or audiophiles who buy expensive speakers don't really care about this point. Music is all about emotion. and speakers are too !
on a more serious note, what i love in diy is not to outperform commercial designs for a fraction of the price, this is only the side effect.
Because if you are talking about the price, the time i used to build speakers could have been used to earn good money (i'm a student), and if you are talking about the sound, most people who buy the BEST SOUNDING SPEAKERS EVER, don't think about their room's sound,wich is what you hear the most in a design like the nautilus wich is made to have the widest dispersion possible. That is a good indicator of how much B&W and their consumers care about sound, and lots of DIY'er also
the whole thing is about FUN, if you take more fun into intoxicating yourself with MDF dust than into spending thousands of dollars for a speaker built into exotic materials whose names sound like science fiction, then you are in the right place !
the thing important about the topic, is that i also believe that DIY can beat commercial speakers anyday, and that 99 % of the people, either diyist or audiophiles who buy expensive speakers don't really care about this point. Music is all about emotion. and speakers are too !
on a more serious note, what i love in diy is not to outperform commercial designs for a fraction of the price, this is only the side effect.
Because if you are talking about the price, the time i used to build speakers could have been used to earn good money (i'm a student), and if you are talking about the sound, most people who buy the BEST SOUNDING SPEAKERS EVER, don't think about their room's sound,wich is what you hear the most in a design like the nautilus wich is made to have the widest dispersion possible. That is a good indicator of how much B&W and their consumers care about sound, and lots of DIY'er also
the whole thing is about FUN, if you take more fun into intoxicating yourself with MDF dust than into spending thousands of dollars for a speaker built into exotic materials whose names sound like science fiction, then you are in the right place !
or two
Amen to that (where's that Shiraz I've been saving? ). In response to an above query, yes, of course there are objective er, objectives, and measurements. I don't just slap them together and trust to luck you know -I'm a fairly partisan (some would call rabid) supporter of Martin King and his magnificent work in simulating the behaviour of different enclosures. And I'm at a stage now where, like many others, I can engineer a flatter response for my room better than any of the commercials (assuming they're even trying for neutrality, which is by no means invariable). Which is how I initially proceed. I might then add a touch at cut-off, or reduce a part of the range to tailor it to my taste, the room, or whatever I'm aiming to achieve. Objective rules, I'm with you 100% on that: if there's a difference, then you can measure it, and I'm no follower of the voodoo nonsense like fancy cables, don't get that idea. But there are other points to consider too as well as a flat frequency response.
Remember that human hearing is not linear. If it was, we'd all have an easier time of it. Also -which would provide the more realistic rendering of, say, a Yo Yo Ma cello recording -a BBC LS3/5a or, say, one of Terry Cain's big BEN double horns? Well, I know which is the more neutral in measured response, and to the recording, but for all that, it doesn't sound like a cello. The other one does. And -what if you listen to a lot of rock? I do, hense my liking a shot of warmth in the mid-bass. A perfectly neutral speaker would render much of it unlistenable, and anything that makes PJ Harvey unlistenable as far as I'm concerned is of no use to me.
Best
Scott
). In response to an above query, yes, of course there are objective er, objectives, and measurements. I don't just slap them together and trust to luck you know -I'm a fairly partisan (some would call rabid) supporter of Martin King and his magnificent work in simulating the behaviour of different enclosures. And I'm at a stage now where, like many others, I can engineer a flatter response for my room better than any of the commercials (assuming they're even trying for neutrality, which is by no means invariable). Which is how I initially proceed. I might then add a touch at cut-off, or reduce a part of the range to tailor it to my taste, the room, or whatever I'm aiming to achieve. Objective rules, I'm with you 100% on that: if there's a difference, then you can measure it, and I'm no follower of the voodoo nonsense like fancy cables, don't get that idea. But there are other points to consider too as well as a flat frequency response. Remember that human hearing is not linear. If it was, we'd all have an easier time of it. Also -which would provide the more realistic rendering of, say, a Yo Yo Ma cello recording -a BBC LS3/5a or, say, one of Terry Cain's big BEN double horns? Well, I know which is the more neutral in measured response, and to the recording, but for all that, it doesn't sound like a cello. The other one does. And -what if you listen to a lot of rock? I do, hense my liking a shot of warmth in the mid-bass. A perfectly neutral speaker would render much of it unlistenable, and anything that makes PJ Harvey unlistenable as far as I'm concerned is of no use to me.
Best
Scott
Nicely said: ------I might then add a touch at cut-off, or reduce a part of the range to tailor it to my taste, the room, or whatever I'm aiming to achieve.------
So, a big difference between companies and a DIYer is the difference in their target group. Companies have to build something that is ‘generally accepted’, that would be in the ‘middle point’ of what is accepted as ‘good quality’ in a given era, and also that would pass the magazine's tests, either acoustical or technical. The DIYer in the other hand has only himself to please. And, if he understands that after the designing and prototyping and technical researching, he would preferably please himself with his ears in the end, and if he wouldn’t force his ears to accept his technical certainties as more enjoyable (there is such a danger), then he would have great chances to succeed and enjoy his music.
Regards,
Thalis
So, a big difference between companies and a DIYer is the difference in their target group. Companies have to build something that is ‘generally accepted’, that would be in the ‘middle point’ of what is accepted as ‘good quality’ in a given era, and also that would pass the magazine's tests, either acoustical or technical. The DIYer in the other hand has only himself to please. And, if he understands that after the designing and prototyping and technical researching, he would preferably please himself with his ears in the end, and if he wouldn’t force his ears to accept his technical certainties as more enjoyable (there is such a danger), then he would have great chances to succeed and enjoy his music.
Regards,
Thalis
I think the issue is stated so broadly as to be without much meaning. At the absolute top, the drivers are usually proprietary modifications of existing drivers and are not generally available. Companies like Vandersteen and Thiel are now designing their own drivers. Very difficult for the amateur to match.
At the very low cost end, economies of scale might prevent the amateur from building a better speaker at lower cost, but surely a better speaker can be built.
The business, if of any size and age, is apt to be able to receive free samples, or at the least can afford to buy samples of many many models. And can afford nifty test equipment and design software. Plus experience, and specialization.
What the amateur has going for them is time and patience. Some of the cabinetry from amateurs is amazing, and would add a great deal of cost to typical commercial speakers to match the amateur work in both looks and performance. And without a marketing-imposed completion deadline, the amateur has the luxury of working on the design until it is fully optimized. And of course the even greater luxury of voicing to one's taste, associated equipment, and listening area.
A rule of thumb (which may have changed more recently ) is that the drivers represent about 10% of the retail price. The cabinet is the most expensive component, and shipping costs are not trivial. Without the markup, cabinet, and shipping costs, the amateur has quite a bit of money to "play" with, even allowing for the increased cost of drivers and crossover components at low quantities, (cheerfully assuming that the amateur can build cabinets). That money can buy better drivers and crossover components.
And of course the enjoyment of DIYing has to be added in.
At the very low cost end, economies of scale might prevent the amateur from building a better speaker at lower cost, but surely a better speaker can be built.
The business, if of any size and age, is apt to be able to receive free samples, or at the least can afford to buy samples of many many models. And can afford nifty test equipment and design software. Plus experience, and specialization.
What the amateur has going for them is time and patience. Some of the cabinetry from amateurs is amazing, and would add a great deal of cost to typical commercial speakers to match the amateur work in both looks and performance. And without a marketing-imposed completion deadline, the amateur has the luxury of working on the design until it is fully optimized. And of course the even greater luxury of voicing to one's taste, associated equipment, and listening area.
A rule of thumb (which may have changed more recently ) is that the drivers represent about 10% of the retail price. The cabinet is the most expensive component, and shipping costs are not trivial. Without the markup, cabinet, and shipping costs, the amateur has quite a bit of money to "play" with, even allowing for the increased cost of drivers and crossover components at low quantities, (cheerfully assuming that the amateur can build cabinets). That money can buy better drivers and crossover components.
And of course the enjoyment of DIYing has to be added in.
This, like all of my posts, is a "for what it's worth". I'm quite a rank amateur, and generally proud to admit it. What follows is a recent experience with just one of the thousands of commercial speakers out there.
I've never owned a commercial speaker. I've been listening to my own creations since I worked in a stereo shop my junior year of high school in the seventies. It was much harder then to come up with something to compete with commercial offerings. No laptop software (what - laptops?) no internet shoppable partsexpress, madisound, etc, and far less variety of high quality drivers available to the diy'er. Ever since I've gotten hooked on diy, I've never been tempted to shell out many hundreds of dollars for anything if my ears couldn't convince me of its merits. But I have often wondered just what was in the "black box" represented by all of that engineering behind some of the big names.
Now here comes the for what it's worth. I lucked into a mint pair of Polk Audio RT55i speakers at an estate sale a month ago for fifteen dollars. They're mid to high fi according to who you ask about them.
I remember Polk being a respectable name. They looked really well built. I got home and looked them up on the internet and they listed for six to seven hundred dollars when new. People on the Polk Audio forum (naturally) wax apoplectic about their merits.
I hooked them up and was considerably less than slack jawed. Here was something clearly designed as much by marketing types as by engineers, just like a lot of mid-level "luxury" automobiles from the big three. A bloated boomy soft and luxurious box that is sure to please the wife, kids, and yacht club dinner guests.
My diy side got the better of me and I removed the drivers from the baffle. The drivers are held against the baffle by a piece of injection molded plastic. The drivers are not mounted rigidly to the baffle but simply held against thin gaskets. The baskets are of thin guage stamped metal that isn't even up to the standards that I've come to expect from the stamped baskets that are still available on many decent drivers. Internal wiring was approx 22ga wire with cheap spade connectors. The speakers were mint, no signs of abuse, but the thin cardboard port tube within the one that I opened had come loose and was rattling around the bottom of the cabinet! There was no stuffing whatsoever in the cabinet (no doubt a design consideration - just how much could it have set them back to include some?).
Wondering why the tube was loose, i noticed that it had merely been jammed into a hole and held there with a rubber "o" ring.
The cheesy looking silver domed tweeter was physically less than impressive looking when I got behind it. The magnet looked small enough to be neodymium, but it wasn't. (Polk wants 88 dollars to replace this thing). It's a really awful sounding tweeter. But it does have "Dynamic Balance" stenciled in matching silver print in a circle around the dome on its pebbled plastic faceplate. It's got that going for it!
Let's not even get started on what I found in the crossovers.
This is the first time in my life I've actually looked inside of a "commercial" speaker. I know that seven hundred dollars a pair may be on the low end of what many would consider when shopping for quality speakers, but good grief. I must be pretty spoiled by the quality available to the diy'er nowadays. I've built three times the quality of sound and substance with SEAS drivers for one third of the cost of these babys. That's a HUGE difference in satisfaction as far as I'm concerned.
My brother might be getting some mint Polks for his birthday. His golfing buddies ought to go just ga ga over'em.
I've never owned a commercial speaker. I've been listening to my own creations since I worked in a stereo shop my junior year of high school in the seventies. It was much harder then to come up with something to compete with commercial offerings. No laptop software (what - laptops?) no internet shoppable partsexpress, madisound, etc, and far less variety of high quality drivers available to the diy'er. Ever since I've gotten hooked on diy, I've never been tempted to shell out many hundreds of dollars for anything if my ears couldn't convince me of its merits. But I have often wondered just what was in the "black box" represented by all of that engineering behind some of the big names.
Now here comes the for what it's worth. I lucked into a mint pair of Polk Audio RT55i speakers at an estate sale a month ago for fifteen dollars. They're mid to high fi according to who you ask about them.
I remember Polk being a respectable name. They looked really well built. I got home and looked them up on the internet and they listed for six to seven hundred dollars when new. People on the Polk Audio forum (naturally) wax apoplectic about their merits.
I hooked them up and was considerably less than slack jawed. Here was something clearly designed as much by marketing types as by engineers, just like a lot of mid-level "luxury" automobiles from the big three. A bloated boomy soft and luxurious box that is sure to please the wife, kids, and yacht club dinner guests.
My diy side got the better of me and I removed the drivers from the baffle. The drivers are held against the baffle by a piece of injection molded plastic. The drivers are not mounted rigidly to the baffle but simply held against thin gaskets. The baskets are of thin guage stamped metal that isn't even up to the standards that I've come to expect from the stamped baskets that are still available on many decent drivers. Internal wiring was approx 22ga wire with cheap spade connectors. The speakers were mint, no signs of abuse, but the thin cardboard port tube within the one that I opened had come loose and was rattling around the bottom of the cabinet! There was no stuffing whatsoever in the cabinet (no doubt a design consideration - just how much could it have set them back to include some?).
Wondering why the tube was loose, i noticed that it had merely been jammed into a hole and held there with a rubber "o" ring.
The cheesy looking silver domed tweeter was physically less than impressive looking when I got behind it. The magnet looked small enough to be neodymium, but it wasn't. (Polk wants 88 dollars to replace this thing). It's a really awful sounding tweeter. But it does have "Dynamic Balance" stenciled in matching silver print in a circle around the dome on its pebbled plastic faceplate. It's got that going for it!
Let's not even get started on what I found in the crossovers.
This is the first time in my life I've actually looked inside of a "commercial" speaker. I know that seven hundred dollars a pair may be on the low end of what many would consider when shopping for quality speakers, but good grief. I must be pretty spoiled by the quality available to the diy'er nowadays. I've built three times the quality of sound and substance with SEAS drivers for one third of the cost of these babys. That's a HUGE difference in satisfaction as far as I'm concerned.
My brother might be getting some mint Polks for his birthday. His golfing buddies ought to go just ga ga over'em.
keyser said:
Keyser,
It's *possible* for the DIYer to build a better system than the commercial guys can.
It's often a matter of knowledge.
The factory guys know more about the design theory than the *average* DIYer.
Do you know the effect Vas has on Qts?
What's the difference in sound between system Q of .5 or 1.1?
Would you care?
How will you control cabinet edge diffraction?
But then, you'll save quite a bit so you can buy higher quality parts for the system. Just learn more and/or follow someone who does know more.
If a DIYer is following a good design, the speaker system can be much better.
Finally, the joy and pride of *I did it* can outweigh even the best factory products.
DIY can compeat especialy now that measurement tools are becoming available to the DIYer that previously were only available to big companies. Along with that DIYers have some very amazing drivers available along with some solid previosly worked out designs. Take a look at the SEAS thor DIY speakers. You can buy the speakers as a kit from madisound for around $1500 including the cabinates. From what I understand there are very few comertial speakers that could compare for double the price. In fact I have yet to find someone who could compare them to a quality comertial speaker.
I'd suggest not using the Polks as the poster box for commercial speakers. They have their reputation because of extensive advertising and good exposure through the large chains, but I've never heard a good one.
But there are many, many well designed and built speakers. Good drivers are (as you know) readily available, and many manufacturers make excellent systems using off the shelf drivers. After all, those drivers on the shelves are there for the manufacturer market; DIY is just the gravy. And then there are those who have custom versions made for them, and those who make their own, like Thiel and Vandersteen. For some of those manufacturers it is pretty much a labor of love; they ain't getting rich. I guess you could classify them as professional DIY'ers.
But there are many, many well designed and built speakers. Good drivers are (as you know) readily available, and many manufacturers make excellent systems using off the shelf drivers. After all, those drivers on the shelves are there for the manufacturer market; DIY is just the gravy. And then there are those who have custom versions made for them, and those who make their own, like Thiel and Vandersteen. For some of those manufacturers it is pretty much a labor of love; they ain't getting rich. I guess you could classify them as professional DIY'ers.
------At the absolute top, the drivers are usually proprietary modifications of existing drivers and are not generally available. Companies like Vandersteen and Thiel are now designing their own drivers. Very difficult for the amateur to match.-----
Dear Curmudgeon, a diyer has also choices that companies can’t match. How many times have you seen ravens, lowthers (used as midranges), or really expensive 15inch drivers or even 24inch, or some other even more esoteric drivers (mostly French and Japanese) in consumer speakers?
That some companies design their own drivers doesn’t mean anything, except if they had found a way to produce better drivers from the others. That some other companies ‘modify’ well known drivers doesn’t mean anything special as well. Mostly, it’s just an advertising trick – they say in this way that they have power and knowledge, or they discourage cloning-, other times it’s just a tailoring to some special needs that the diyer mostly wouldn’t have.
Overall, I don’t think that there is anything in materials that restricts the diyer. He can proceed into special enclosure constructions as well, and though he won’t be able (perhaps) to construct a corian enclosure, he is able to construct (for instance) a 3cm thick marble one, which a company would never do. A company is restricted in more ways than a diyer is, in practice.
Big companies have a huge technical background, in the other hand and as already mentioned, but there are examples when a diyer can fill the gap.
He also has time. He can struggle two or more years to develop his good speaker without having to calculate the value of his work and time.
So, regarding the rules and the standards and the available tools, I think that we can’t answer the question in a positive and widely accepted way.
Generally, I believe that companies would design better speakers from a great majority of diyers. But the diyer who possesses good knowledge is still able to design and construct a better speaker than any company, because he has less compromises to make and because he doesn’t cost his work and efforts.
In the end, the answer to the question is given by the examples that we have seen.
I have heard some great diyer’s speakers, horns, onkens, 600 liter TQWT or concrete or marble constructed enclosures, fullrange or multiway with 18 and more inch bass drivers, which were at least as good as any commercial Hi-end speaker. And, best of all, which were tailored to their constructor’s needs, room, system ;-)
Regards,
Thalis
Dear Curmudgeon, a diyer has also choices that companies can’t match. How many times have you seen ravens, lowthers (used as midranges), or really expensive 15inch drivers or even 24inch, or some other even more esoteric drivers (mostly French and Japanese) in consumer speakers?
That some companies design their own drivers doesn’t mean anything, except if they had found a way to produce better drivers from the others. That some other companies ‘modify’ well known drivers doesn’t mean anything special as well. Mostly, it’s just an advertising trick – they say in this way that they have power and knowledge, or they discourage cloning-, other times it’s just a tailoring to some special needs that the diyer mostly wouldn’t have.
Overall, I don’t think that there is anything in materials that restricts the diyer. He can proceed into special enclosure constructions as well, and though he won’t be able (perhaps) to construct a corian enclosure, he is able to construct (for instance) a 3cm thick marble one, which a company would never do. A company is restricted in more ways than a diyer is, in practice.
Big companies have a huge technical background, in the other hand and as already mentioned, but there are examples when a diyer can fill the gap.
He also has time. He can struggle two or more years to develop his good speaker without having to calculate the value of his work and time.
So, regarding the rules and the standards and the available tools, I think that we can’t answer the question in a positive and widely accepted way.
Generally, I believe that companies would design better speakers from a great majority of diyers. But the diyer who possesses good knowledge is still able to design and construct a better speaker than any company, because he has less compromises to make and because he doesn’t cost his work and efforts.
In the end, the answer to the question is given by the examples that we have seen.
I have heard some great diyer’s speakers, horns, onkens, 600 liter TQWT or concrete or marble constructed enclosures, fullrange or multiway with 18 and more inch bass drivers, which were at least as good as any commercial Hi-end speaker. And, best of all, which were tailored to their constructor’s needs, room, system ;-)
Regards,
Thalis
...but the Polk is a pretty good example, apparently, of the remarkable qualitative differences between what a commercial speaker maker will offer you, and what you can build on your own today. As you noted, dozens of very competent designs are available to anyone even if he is plugging in an iron for the first time in his life. For many of us here, and perhaps even for the originator of this thread, I'm not sure how useful it is to compare diy with speakers costing in excess of eight thousand dollars. (even if some truly blind auditions were to reveal that many of these "emperors" had no clothes).
One of the most rewarding, and daunting, aspects of speakerbuilding is that it's entirely possible to get woeful results from the very finest components, and astonishing results from some fairly modest ones. The latter is what really makes this hobby rewarding for me.
Hope I don't ruffle any feathers, but the Thor would seem to represent a middle niche somewhere between diy and commercial offerings. It's more like a paint-by-numbers on top of someone elses artwork. It's still designed in-house and the assembler is paying for what that effort represents. The satisfaction of having "built" them must lie somewhere between building your own from the ground up, and purchasing something off the shelf (unless your only goal was, after all, simply to save money).
But then again, there are innumerable such niches along the divide. There is a mix of members here who build their own amps, cd players, active crossovers, etc,.. and many who stay satisfied with commercial offerings. Some brave souls actually build their own drivers! Wind your own voice coils? Pot your own capacitors? No doubt someone, somewhere is crafting his own tubes in his basement. There will always be some more esoteric someone to tell you that you really aren't "doing it yourself".
One of the most rewarding, and daunting, aspects of speakerbuilding is that it's entirely possible to get woeful results from the very finest components, and astonishing results from some fairly modest ones. The latter is what really makes this hobby rewarding for me.
Hope I don't ruffle any feathers, but the Thor would seem to represent a middle niche somewhere between diy and commercial offerings. It's more like a paint-by-numbers on top of someone elses artwork. It's still designed in-house and the assembler is paying for what that effort represents. The satisfaction of having "built" them must lie somewhere between building your own from the ground up, and purchasing something off the shelf (unless your only goal was, after all, simply to save money).
But then again, there are innumerable such niches along the divide. There is a mix of members here who build their own amps, cd players, active crossovers, etc,.. and many who stay satisfied with commercial offerings. Some brave souls actually build their own drivers! Wind your own voice coils? Pot your own capacitors? No doubt someone, somewhere is crafting his own tubes in his basement. There will always be some more esoteric someone to tell you that you really aren't "doing it yourself".
DJNUBZ said:
Agreed with the principle, but if I can take it a little further...
The drivers used in Thor are stunning -the equal or better of many commercial speakers retailing in the $4,000 - $5,000 bracket. Unfortunately, the cabinet design is apalling, due to the fact that it's based upon some early Ausperger alignment tables that are, frankly, way out. I don't care how famous Dr J. D'Apollito is -this cabinet is lousy. There are also so many mistakes in the original article I gave up counting. He's a great designer, but he messed up in a spectacular fashion with this one. Worryingly though, as it stands Thor is still easily superior to most commercial speakers even remotely near its price.
So it isn't all a big 'build by numbers' kit. The drivers are available separately, but as they are cheaper in the kit, and come with a passable crossover (nothing a competent DIYer couldn't come up with or better -it doesn't have enough baffle-step correction in my view, for example), why not? If you want to really use these drivers (remember Krell use drivers from this very range in their new $11,000 designs) to their best, you'll have to engineer a cabinet for them yourself. Just design it in Martin King's seminal MathCad worksheets. I've come up with a few examples, which are on the various Thor threads, and I would cheerfully wager, that, with the drivers and crossovers duely installed in one of those, it would give most speakers in the above-mentioned price-bracket the fright of their allegedly 'audiophile' lives, both in objective, and subjective measurement.
Commercials do it better? Not all the time they don't.
Best
Scott
Keyser started this thread by positing a question about commercial vs DIY. I think I was the first to offer my observations, and have now come back to read through the whole thread. An interesting read.
I also noticed that Keyer later asked me what DIY speaker could match the performance of the Bowers 800 series. I am probalbly not the person to ask, but here is my reply.
Firstly, I don't have tons of time with the 801, but have listened to them a couple of times. But, that is not the point. I think that Keyser uses the 801 as an example of the ultimate product offered by the industry which is supposedly just out of the reach of DIY.
Well....whatever. However, I do know that the average owner of Maggie 20.1s would not trade them for 801s. Neither would the average A-1 owner. If you have a big Genesis system, then you probalbly won't care for the 801s. The overall experience is simply too different. I have a freind that has 1100 lbs of Wilson MAXX-IIs in his listening room with one chair. I gather if he wanted 801s he would have them. Its also safe to say that 801 owners wouldn't trade them for squat either.
The point is one that I made earlier; no matter what you have there is someone, somewhere, that has a "better" speaker.
For me personally, I can't finacially play in that arena. Quite honestly (with no offense intended) if I had $45,000 to pay for speakers, I would probalbly just buy my sister or daughter a house.
As for DIY not being able to meet the performance of commercial designs...I call bullpookie on that idea. The materials and math are the same for both; it's just a matter of how far you want to take it. There are planty of DIYers that built really crappy speakers, just like the ones available at the store. Conversly, there are DIYers that build truly amazing systems that can stand up to anything, anywhere. I am doing my level best to join the latter group.
A couple of hours ago, I was listening to some acoustic jazz. I had my head down because I was reading, and over my shoulder I kept hearing a certain range in the guitar clearly reverberating off of the wall behind me. It was uncanny, the distinct location over my shoulder. I had to smile because there is no wall behind me, the bounce was coming from the wall in the recording.
What DIY speaker can compete with the B&W 801 ??
I have no idea.
Ribbon Project
I also noticed that Keyer later asked me what DIY speaker could match the performance of the Bowers 800 series. I am probalbly not the person to ask, but here is my reply.
Firstly, I don't have tons of time with the 801, but have listened to them a couple of times. But, that is not the point. I think that Keyser uses the 801 as an example of the ultimate product offered by the industry which is supposedly just out of the reach of DIY.
Well....whatever. However, I do know that the average owner of Maggie 20.1s would not trade them for 801s. Neither would the average A-1 owner. If you have a big Genesis system, then you probalbly won't care for the 801s. The overall experience is simply too different. I have a freind that has 1100 lbs of Wilson MAXX-IIs in his listening room with one chair. I gather if he wanted 801s he would have them. Its also safe to say that 801 owners wouldn't trade them for squat either.
The point is one that I made earlier; no matter what you have there is someone, somewhere, that has a "better" speaker.
For me personally, I can't finacially play in that arena. Quite honestly (with no offense intended) if I had $45,000 to pay for speakers, I would probalbly just buy my sister or daughter a house.
As for DIY not being able to meet the performance of commercial designs...I call bullpookie on that idea. The materials and math are the same for both; it's just a matter of how far you want to take it. There are planty of DIYers that built really crappy speakers, just like the ones available at the store. Conversly, there are DIYers that build truly amazing systems that can stand up to anything, anywhere. I am doing my level best to join the latter group.
A couple of hours ago, I was listening to some acoustic jazz. I had my head down because I was reading, and over my shoulder I kept hearing a certain range in the guitar clearly reverberating off of the wall behind me. It was uncanny, the distinct location over my shoulder. I had to smile because there is no wall behind me, the bounce was coming from the wall in the recording.
What DIY speaker can compete with the B&W 801 ??
I have no idea.
Ribbon Project
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