Ah! Now that you mention it, I can see what you are doing in the picture. It's sort of hard to see if you don't know what to look for.hongrn said:
I guess I will have to stick with glue and clamps, then.
Those boxes do look great, by the way! One question, though: you mentioned that you were using a PR with the RSHF 10"'s, and I was wondering what PR you picked to go with it. I know PE doesn't make a RS PR and I would love to hear what you picked.
Also, while I am off topic and asking about drivers
)), how do you like the RS mid/woofers?
I have no real "position" here. For building speakers cabs PVA is fine. AND, I said, "refer to pinkmouse" in my very first post (#3).
The question posed by the thread starter is what is "best". So, I answered... epoxy... simple. Most of these people are fanatics... and the fanatics answer, and also the truth, is that epoxy is probably the best wood glue. I rarely advise people to use the "best" because it makes no difference. The pretty girl you have won't care, except that she is poorer... and the pretty girl, you're trying to win, won't either.
Would I build speaker cabs out of this... no... wait... maybe. Speaker cabs are low stress... really. They have long joints with low moment arms (stress) and they are six sided.
I am currently rebuilding a 100 year old solid mahagony (sp?) dining room set... of a german style... this was rebuilt before in the 70's with PVA. PVA does not LAST. All the chairs are falling apart because the PVA has died. PVA is NOT a noble material... it is easily attacked by many things... stress and water being two of them. People that cite "stronger than the wood" are not talking about joints exposed to stress risers (liitle sticks connected with dowels). we have all seen PVA fail miserably at holding chairs together.
Then some people wandered along and said, "epoxy needs clamps". It does not... period... end of story. IF epoxied joints can just sit... without being disturbed... they will be just fine. You don't disturb any glue joint while it is curing/drying. Epoxy joints can be just pressed (or nailed) into place... really. now if your stuff doesn't fit together.... USE CLAMPS!!!!
I am building a boat... all epoxy... two step process.... "wet" the wood with low viscosity material... come back later and make the joints with high viscosity material while the first coat is still "sticky".
Last speakers I made... PVA... next speakers PVA... again refer to pinkmouse (post #2).
Now, veneer work & laminations, mostly PVA... sometimes "hide glue". Sticks and dowels... EPOXY. Wipe off the excess (right away) with alcohol.
What is "hide glue"? Google it. Interestingly enough the stradivari (violins) have not fallen apart.
O.K.????
The question posed by the thread starter is what is "best". So, I answered... epoxy... simple. Most of these people are fanatics... and the fanatics answer, and also the truth, is that epoxy is probably the best wood glue. I rarely advise people to use the "best" because it makes no difference. The pretty girl you have won't care, except that she is poorer... and the pretty girl, you're trying to win, won't either.
Would I build speaker cabs out of this... no... wait... maybe. Speaker cabs are low stress... really. They have long joints with low moment arms (stress) and they are six sided.
I am currently rebuilding a 100 year old solid mahagony (sp?) dining room set... of a german style... this was rebuilt before in the 70's with PVA. PVA does not LAST. All the chairs are falling apart because the PVA has died. PVA is NOT a noble material... it is easily attacked by many things... stress and water being two of them. People that cite "stronger than the wood" are not talking about joints exposed to stress risers (liitle sticks connected with dowels). we have all seen PVA fail miserably at holding chairs together.
Then some people wandered along and said, "epoxy needs clamps". It does not... period... end of story. IF epoxied joints can just sit... without being disturbed... they will be just fine. You don't disturb any glue joint while it is curing/drying. Epoxy joints can be just pressed (or nailed) into place... really. now if your stuff doesn't fit together.... USE CLAMPS!!!!
I am building a boat... all epoxy... two step process.... "wet" the wood with low viscosity material... come back later and make the joints with high viscosity material while the first coat is still "sticky".
Last speakers I made... PVA... next speakers PVA... again refer to pinkmouse (post #2).
Now, veneer work & laminations, mostly PVA... sometimes "hide glue". Sticks and dowels... EPOXY. Wipe off the excess (right away) with alcohol.
What is "hide glue"? Google it. Interestingly enough the stradivari (violins) have not fallen apart.
O.K.????
I use the Dayton 12" DVC PR and added 255g to it, for a total Mms of 400g, resulting in a predicted F3 of 25Hz. I used the PR because of the required long vent, which needed to be bent to fit inside the box. The whole system just rocks. Friends and neighbors are just amazed that such good sounding speakers can emanate from a garage.
Hong
poobah said:O.K.????
Works for me! I must admit I have never worked with the type of epoxy you are describing, so I will humbly defer to your experience. All of the stuff I have ever used would be slick to the point of not holding shape long enough to survive putting on additional box sides, nor tacky enough to hold right angles required for making square boxes. I would actually like to check out the epoxy you are describing because it sounds like something I would like to have in my wood working arsenal! Could you mention the brand or formula? Thanks in advance!
Also, I whole heartedly agree about typical Elmer's type PVA wood glue not holding up over time, which I why I use Titebond II, which is a different formulation that has been shown to hold up a lot better under all sorts of stresses. I haven't had time to fully test the new Titebond III, but I hear it has the best water resistance rating of any water based wood glue ever made, and it is supposed to have strength to go along with the environmental resiliency.
This is, of course, just my experience, but since we are talking about ultimate glues (and remembering that this is just having fun!), I would argue that factors such as ease of use, ease of cleanup, strength of bond, toxicity
, and strength over time should all be considered for DIY’ers since the process contributes to the product in most cases. That being said, I’ll let everybody draw their own conclusions. (I guess I am just too practical sometimes! )I would like to hear more comments from people using liquid nails, though!
Edit: Oh, and I didn't miss the part about you advocating PVA glue also! I think everyone here is on the same page about that being the most practical solution by far!!!
The epoxies I'm talking about are from U.S. Composites... Google it. This place has a well organized web site, best prices, and quality service.
Now if you look too deeply into epoxy for wood (ala boats) you will find the same people that sell speakers cables and rhino horn capacitors... I am convinced it's only 2 or 3 guys out there... epoxy is, at least on the web, another "racket".
I didn't go for the lowest price... I looked for the website with the best explainations and the least hype.
Now if you look too deeply into epoxy for wood (ala boats) you will find the same people that sell speakers cables and rhino horn capacitors... I am convinced it's only 2 or 3 guys out there... epoxy is, at least on the web, another "racket".
I didn't go for the lowest price... I looked for the website with the best explainations and the least hype.
pinkmouse said:
Gorilla is only slightly more difficult to work with than yellow woodworkers glue. The expansion is a plus when working with MDF and repairing older cabinets. You can clean excess glue off with a damp sponge before it sets. It sands as easily as yellow woodglue and
much easier than epoxy. The noxious smell factor is very low with the gorilla glue this is a major consideration in my laundryroom- storage- workout- I mean workshop.
I "prime" the entire cabinet, inside and out, with epoxy before veneering. While I am not envisioning a time in where my speakers will become submersed, I still have concerns on environmental effects like humidity. I guess how far you go depends on what your expectations are. If you plan to make heirloom grade cabinets - the expense of epoxy is relatively minor when compared to time spent constructing and expected lifetime of the cabinet.
I get the feeling that most DIY'ers are always working on new designs... which can drastically shorten the life expectancy of previous projects
~Brad
I get the feeling that most DIY'ers are always working on new designs... which can drastically shorten the life expectancy of previous projects
~Brad
poobah said:
That's still 3 or 4 hours and a border away.
googler said:
Fair enough but I think you have to consider the life expectancy of the drivers when you build a cabinet. I am yet to renew drivers in any cabinet I have built. Things change too much. New drivers, new cabinet.
This might be the key.
I have some 30 year old cabinets I built with white glue that are showing no signs of weakness, and that's after spending the first half of their life in a ...gasp...Pinto. The drivers are old and faded but with the rubber surrounds, there is no need to update yet. Will I consider renewing the drivers? Of course not, the cabinets are thirty years old!
I completely agree, which is why I use a tough enamel paint on cabinets. If you are using a veneer, your best bet is a polyurethane top coat. If you seal the under-layer of the veneer and then the veneer on top, I am not sure what you are winning. . .googler said:
Also, I must say that polyurethane or an enamel paint, in my experience, is easier to work with than epoxy and has great protection for all but the most extremely abused surfaces. If you are going to subject speakers to en environment that will damage these surfaces, I am not sure how you will protect the speakers.
Unless you are building a bar top, I cannot envision an application where epoxy will be required over polyurethane.
Then again, overkill is fun too!
I am sure the 2.5" baffles on my speakers are unnecessiary, but I put them on anyway!! Besides, all of this is what makes people happy with the speakers THEY are building for THEMSELVES!!! If someone wants to gold plate the cabinets, far be it from me to stop them!
googler said:
So there I was, one month ago today, sitting in my basement rec room checking ebay and answering emails when I hear drip... drip....drip... dripdripdripdrip -roar! It was pouring like hell outside and the ground was frozen and there was no where for the water (rushing down the back slope of my yard !) to go but over the sill and into the storage/workroom area. 1st thing I did was get my latest spkr project up off the floor to higher ground. The rest of the weekend was a night mare but the only thing we lost was some ugly indoor/outdoor carpet.
Had we gone away over the holidays those spkrs would have been sitting in H2O for quite a while.
You never know!
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