Hello World
1st post.
i am looking into building some near field surround speakers for my home theatre setup. i live in a small apartment with little space for speakers. i already have 2 large front speakers and a sub but i would like to add rear speakrs to achieve 4.1 srruound (i very much dislike a center channel so no 5.1 for me) I have been thinking of building something along these lines
http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=24_92&products_id=539
or
http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/wrnch2/id47.html
while both are similar and use the same mid driver im debating the merits of the silk dome vs. the ribbon.
i have also been thinking of perhaps a dipole setup similar to this
http://adireaudio.com/Home/KITDDR.htm
again using the same adire extremis mid.
which do you think would prove the best for a rear channel home theatre setup. i have very little space to place the speakers and they would likely be directly next to the couch at ear level. one last note i live with my girlfriend and a female room mate therefore they cant be large or obtrusive and my power to arrange furnature is limited at best.
here are a couple pictures of my room and setup
any recommendations would be very helpful
thanks in advance
Rob
1st post.
i am looking into building some near field surround speakers for my home theatre setup. i live in a small apartment with little space for speakers. i already have 2 large front speakers and a sub but i would like to add rear speakrs to achieve 4.1 srruound (i very much dislike a center channel so no 5.1 for me) I have been thinking of building something along these lines
http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=24_92&products_id=539
or
http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/wrnch2/id47.html
while both are similar and use the same mid driver im debating the merits of the silk dome vs. the ribbon.
i have also been thinking of perhaps a dipole setup similar to this
http://adireaudio.com/Home/KITDDR.htm
again using the same adire extremis mid.
which do you think would prove the best for a rear channel home theatre setup. i have very little space to place the speakers and they would likely be directly next to the couch at ear level. one last note i live with my girlfriend and a female room mate therefore they cant be large or obtrusive and my power to arrange furnature is limited at best.
here are a couple pictures of my room and setup
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
any recommendations would be very helpful
thanks in advance
Rob
Have you considered coaxials? They would be perfect for this setup.
Check these out :
http://www.ele.tut.fi/~artoko/audio/speakers/coaxial.html
http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20050901.htm
Check these out :
http://www.ele.tut.fi/~artoko/audio/speakers/coaxial.html
http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20050901.htm
Someone who shares a small apartment has $2500 USD for rear speakers?
I would imagine David meant something more like this: http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4671630.26597&pid=2051.
Or perhaps you can tell me what you do for a living .
Cheers,
AJ
I would imagine David meant something more like this: http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4671630.26597&pid=2051.
Or perhaps you can tell me what you do for a living
.Cheers,
AJ
I work as an audio/lighting/theatre tech at the university of victoria center auditorium. http://auditorium.uvic.ca/ i am used to dealing with the likes of EV, EAW, Crown, QSC (hence the sub amp, salvaged DOA from a local night club) 802's are also salvaged, the surrounds were turning to dust i repaired them and they work great though not quite hifi stuff though. great for voice though.
$2500 is a little out of my range but if/when i am ever rich the adire Apex is so the first thing on my shopping list.
anyways im hyjacking my own thread...
the madisounds look interesting i will look into it further. the girlfriend likes the looks of the HT3 by rawacoustics.com though with the extremis near the floor i think it would be wasted and absorbed by the couch. the tower floorstander design of the HT3 is tempting as is the DDR dipole though ~$500 for the needed extremii is a little steep.
do you think that a single extremis 6.8 and the neo3-pdr in the ddr dipole design would provide enough volume. powered by 100W sony (read: 40 "real" watts)
$2500 is a little out of my range but if/when i am ever rich the adire Apex is so the first thing on my shopping list.
anyways im hyjacking my own thread...
the madisounds look interesting i will look into it further. the girlfriend likes the looks of the HT3 by rawacoustics.com though with the extremis near the floor i think it would be wasted and absorbed by the couch. the tower floorstander design of the HT3 is tempting as is the DDR dipole though ~$500 for the needed extremii is a little steep.
do you think that a single extremis 6.8 and the neo3-pdr in the ddr dipole design would provide enough volume. powered by 100W sony (read: 40 "real" watts)
All of the speakers you linked should be superior to those Bose 802s, and all of them would suck as surround speakers. They are too directional for the small space you have.
Imagine you have two people sitting on your couch. The person on the left would only hear the left rear speaker, while the person on the right would only hear the right rear speaker. Try to adjust the balance and you will make on of the people very upset or deaf.
The first thing you need to do is find a way to equalize the distance between the listener and each rear speaker. Your proposed configuration would have one speaker 1.5 feet away from the listeners head, and the other 6 feet. This would amount to a 6db difference in volume.
Wall mounting about 5 feet off the ground will be your best bet. For the speaker, consider a bipole configuration with dual 4" woofers and dual 1" tweeters. This should let you use a relatively small box with wide dispersion and extension below 100hz.
As a side note, how do you get away with having so many messy dishes laying about with two female roommates????
... eh, now my gf is yelling at me to get off the computer. Gotta run
Dan
Imagine you have two people sitting on your couch. The person on the left would only hear the left rear speaker, while the person on the right would only hear the right rear speaker. Try to adjust the balance and you will make on of the people very upset or deaf.
The first thing you need to do is find a way to equalize the distance between the listener and each rear speaker. Your proposed configuration would have one speaker 1.5 feet away from the listeners head, and the other 6 feet. This would amount to a 6db difference in volume.
Wall mounting about 5 feet off the ground will be your best bet. For the speaker, consider a bipole configuration with dual 4" woofers and dual 1" tweeters. This should let you use a relatively small box with wide dispersion and extension below 100hz.
As a side note, how do you get away with having so many messy dishes laying about with two female roommates????
... eh, now my gf is yelling at me to get off the computer. Gotta run
Dan
As a side note, how do you get away with having so many messy dishes laying about with two female roommates????
HA those are THEIR dishes so that makes it ok for them to be there. but if i have a single coffee cup oh boy get the riot gear.
can you be a little more specific here?
could you perhaps link to something that would be along these lines. i was hoping to use the adire extremis since ive heard such good things and it just looks "snazzy"
correct me if im wrong but the smaller the diaphram of the driver the wider the beam angle yes? so say all other things being equal a 1" tweeter would be narrower then a .5" tweeter
i seem to remember somthing like that. i think its why bose does the little 3" speakers almost exclusivly
Hello Victoria,
Beautiful town that is. Yes you are right to assume that the smaller the driver, the better the dispersion, usually.
If you aren't able get a satisfactory distance from speaker to ear, you can consider putting them above your head facing downward. It's a bit different but sometimes it works OK.
Beautiful town that is. Yes you are right to assume that the smaller the driver, the better the dispersion, usually.
If you aren't able get a satisfactory distance from speaker to ear, you can consider putting them above your head facing downward. It's a bit different but sometimes it works OK.
Rob
Thanks for the interest in the HT6 as a option .
But as noted for rears I would stay away from such a large speaker as the Kit 61 or the HT6
Why.
Well even in 6 channel format when you use a sub via a reciever the cut off freqency is normally around 80-100 hz.For this reason alone I would lean to a smaller rear speaker.
Now if you had a large room 20 ft wide running 100+ watts into the rears and had room to position them I would lean to the MTM for rears.
Now coming to the point of positioning them.
I helped Danny of GR in the design of the AV1RS this rear speaker fires up and uses the ceiling as a reflection to have a better time alignment in any room if used as rears or as side surrounds.
I would even use a sealed rear speaker tilted back and upward.Far better time alignment to the seated location for surrounds.
Well just my advice.
Enjoy
Thanks for the interest in the HT6 as a option .
But as noted for rears I would stay away from such a large speaker as the Kit 61 or the HT6
Why.
Well even in 6 channel format when you use a sub via a reciever the cut off freqency is normally around 80-100 hz.For this reason alone I would lean to a smaller rear speaker.
Now if you had a large room 20 ft wide running 100+ watts into the rears and had room to position them I would lean to the MTM for rears.
Now coming to the point of positioning them.
I helped Danny of GR in the design of the AV1RS this rear speaker fires up and uses the ceiling as a reflection to have a better time alignment in any room if used as rears or as side surrounds.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I would even use a sealed rear speaker tilted back and upward.Far better time alignment to the seated location for surrounds.
Well just my advice.
Enjoy
Al,
Thanks for the post about the upward firing rears. An interesting though and it looks like Danny put together a reasonably priced kit as well. I'm sure the additional challenges when designing the crossover are well out of my ability.
Your last statement mentioned using a sealed rear speaker and tilting back and up. Are you suggesting he keeps a similar position (i.e. height and location at the side of the couch) and simply face the back wall and tilt up at a 30 deg angle or similar? It actually sounds like an interesting idea. I wasn't sure if you were thinking positioning them closer to the floor and up or farther from the wall etc.
Years ago I made the choice (newbie) that I would prefer in-ceiling surrounds than something out in the open. I can heartily recommend NOT doing this unless WAF is the only objective. I have never been satisfied with that choice in my space.
Anyway, I would welcome reading any other comments you may have about the back/up positioning. I'm going to have to ponder the AV1RS a bit more for sure. . .
Sandy.
Thanks for the post about the upward firing rears. An interesting though and it looks like Danny put together a reasonably priced kit as well. I'm sure the additional challenges when designing the crossover are well out of my ability.
Your last statement mentioned using a sealed rear speaker and tilting back and up. Are you suggesting he keeps a similar position (i.e. height and location at the side of the couch) and simply face the back wall and tilt up at a 30 deg angle or similar? It actually sounds like an interesting idea. I wasn't sure if you were thinking positioning them closer to the floor and up or farther from the wall etc.
Years ago I made the choice (newbie) that I would prefer in-ceiling surrounds than something out in the open. I can heartily recommend NOT doing this unless WAF is the only objective. I have never been satisfied with that choice in my space.
Anyway, I would welcome reading any other comments you may have about the back/up positioning. I'm going to have to ponder the AV1RS a bit more for sure. . .
Sandy.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Position of the surrounds is limited to the room placments that are possible.Height limitations do not matter if you can control the side surround power level output as well as the rear out put.
The key is to have enough power to drive them up firing if they have to be mounted down lower.Really they work the best 12-24" down from the ceiling this is done as well best with a simple string.
Position the upward firing speaker in the height location that is best suited for your room.Window limitations what ever.
Tape the string to the wall location were the speaker will be positioned and run it up to the ceiling and we just use a push pin to hold each string then run it from that spot to your ear sweet spot.
What does the angle look like does the string stretch out to far if so lower the speaker height for mounting.
Really not hard same can be done with a cheap $1.00 laser light and a small mirror.
These tools will get you a lot more out of your speaker placement before you even turn on the source.
Now do they have to be alll the same height for sides and rears NO not if as I said you have enough power to make them work say down low.
Hope this helps out a little.
By the way the blue room is our HT room with the AV1RS on the walls painted the same wall colour.
The cherry AV1RS shows how a simple 45 on the rear of the cabinet then the other piece mounts to the wall.Sitting the speaker flush on the wall.
the wall mounted ceiling firing speakers are a interesting idea. i will look into that further for sure.
what about this idea that i hashed out with a fellow audio monkey i work with
get 2 wall mounts and build 2 open baffle dipoles using the bollander grabner (sp?) neo3 without the backing so that its dipole and one or two css 4.5" full range drivers
suspend overhead and angle down towards the couch
the girlfriend says as long as its pretty wood i can do it and the artist (her paintings in the background) of the house thinks open baffles "look cool"
as an added bonus if they dont work i still got the front bezel of a box
thoughts
and yes victoria is a great town i love it here. almost as much as i love MSPAINT.
what about this idea that i hashed out with a fellow audio monkey i work with
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
get 2 wall mounts and build 2 open baffle dipoles using the bollander grabner (sp?) neo3 without the backing so that its dipole and one or two css 4.5" full range drivers
suspend overhead and angle down towards the couch
the girlfriend says as long as its pretty wood i can do it and the artist (her paintings in the background) of the house thinks open baffles "look cool"
as an added bonus if they dont work i still got the front bezel of a box
thoughts
and yes victoria is a great town i love it here. almost as much as i love MSPAINT.
i looked at the frequency responce and it looks to put it mildly, yucky.
i dont know if the big dips are from the room treatment , absorbtion whathaveyou. also the high end must suffer due to the reflection off the wall and ceiling. i would also imagine that there would be some delay as there will be some output from teh box direct to your head below it and then the following reflected sound from above. perhaps it sounds good in practice but on paper and in my mind it doesnt look too appealing. i have +- 10db on both front an rear channels on my amp so that gives me 20db of room to play with levels. my sub is also on a +-10db via the preamp as well as the master volume on the QSC amp. i think that the bafflemight provide more of a pointsource then the wall wedge idea but that the rear output would add a nice holographic deeper sound stage to the speaker with less peaks and valleys due to its direct line to the ear. i think i might try the open baffle, its at the top of my list at this time (could change though) and if it doesnt work the way i think it will then i can very easily modify to another design.
Yes the frequency response is a measured refected response.
That is very good.
You should see a few di or bi pole in room measured responses.
That measurment was taked after the ceiling reflection out in the room 6 ft.
Like i said i would just try and point a speaker as you have labled its placment any speaker and see if your controls will pad it down enough.
Like I said i am almost 100% sure it will not.
Having done well over 50 installs in small rooms I have not had any luck with a rear speaker that is a direct radiant speaker into a small area.They just are not controlable enough for me.
That is very good.
You should see a few di or bi pole in room measured responses.
That measurment was taked after the ceiling reflection out in the room 6 ft.
Like i said i would just try and point a speaker as you have labled its placment any speaker and see if your controls will pad it down enough.
Like I said i am almost 100% sure it will not.
Having done well over 50 installs in small rooms I have not had any luck with a rear speaker that is a direct radiant speaker into a small area.They just are not controlable enough for me.
quick question can the neo3 or any other planar/ribbon be mounted in a non vertical orientation?
could it hang from the ceiling?
what about rotate 90*
since the dispersion is not equal for horizontal and vertical could i turn it 90* to better suit my needs?
ive never worked with a ribbon before so i just thought i should check
could it hang from the ceiling?
what about rotate 90*
since the dispersion is not equal for horizontal and vertical could i turn it 90* to better suit my needs?
ive never worked with a ribbon before so i just thought i should check
Ribbons are far too directional, as well as complete overkill, for this application, go for a good dome instead.
I have to say, I'm with the RAW guy. Don't worry about the response curves, 95% of the stuff that comes out of rear speakers is ambience or sound effects, and with your limited space you need to diffuse it a little to get any realism. Bear in mind, all these installation guides for AV that recommend direct radiators are working in rooms about 4 times bigger, (or more), than yours.
I have to say, I'm with the RAW guy. Don't worry about the response curves, 95% of the stuff that comes out of rear speakers is ambience or sound effects, and with your limited space you need to diffuse it a little to get any realism. Bear in mind, all these installation guides for AV that recommend direct radiators are working in rooms about 4 times bigger, (or more), than yours.
Well still lean them back
As far as purcahing a design the GR kit you can purchase from GR we do not sell the kits.
I just pointed you that direction as the AV1RS is designed for room issues like yours.
And if you looked at a samll monitor for the rears and tillt them up I am sure you will be more satisfied with the ambiant surround sound in your size room.
As far as purcahing a design the GR kit you can purchase from GR we do not sell the kits.
I just pointed you that direction as the AV1RS is designed for room issues like yours.
And if you looked at a samll monitor for the rears and tillt them up I am sure you will be more satisfied with the ambiant surround sound in your size room.
ok i just ordered 2 of the GR-t1 tweeters that are on sale from GR. i think i will build both designs the AV-1rs as well as prototype the bipole. thought im going to replace the mid from the av-1rs with the adire extremis. it might make the enclosure a little bigger but i just really want to use these drivers. also it modles a little nicer under bass box pro6. its going to require a different crossover but i can handel that.
whats the concensus on recommended x-over point on the extremis? i was thinking 4.5-5.5K range
12db slope on lowpass and 18db slope on highpass
on a different topic im looking into moding my HT reciever to allow for insert points before the amplifier. IE break the signal path just before entering the amplifier stage and send it to an external processor/eq etc. ive done something similar in my car.
i will keep you all up to date on my progress but due to lack of funds this will probably take place over the next several months or so.
whats the concensus on recommended x-over point on the extremis? i was thinking 4.5-5.5K range
12db slope on lowpass and 18db slope on highpass
on a different topic im looking into moding my HT reciever to allow for insert points before the amplifier. IE break the signal path just before entering the amplifier stage and send it to an external processor/eq etc. ive done something similar in my car.
i will keep you all up to date on my progress but due to lack of funds this will probably take place over the next several months or so.
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