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Old 8th September 2001, 09:54 PM   #1
tsz is offline tsz  Sweden
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Question Manger drivers

Anyone here who have heard the Manger MSW drivers?
Are they any good?
I was thinking of using them from 100 Hz (24 dB/oct) and up.

Thanks
/Tobbe
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Old 8th September 2001, 11:15 PM   #2
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Check out 'http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/sect-6.php3#MANGER'. These are supposed to be very good drivers, but I think you'll need to have the x-over at 200Hz. There are two problems. First, they're expensive. Second, they've gotten out of the DIY market. When the dealer inventory is gone, it's GONE.

Good luck.
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Old 9th September 2001, 09:53 AM   #3
tsz is offline tsz  Sweden
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Thanks Thoth.
Here in Europe they will sell them until next year.
Regarding the crossover point: In Manger's Zeroboxes they use a 6dB/oct crossover at 150 Hz, wouldn't a 24dB/oct at 100 Hz filter out the low frequencies better?
Are there any other problems?

/Tobbe
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Old 13th September 2001, 05:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsz
In Manger's Zeroboxes they use a 6dB/oct crossover at 150 Hz, wouldn't a 24dB/oct at 100 Hz filter out the low frequencies better?
Are there any other problems?
Most wide range speakers (Manger claims 80Hz to 35KHz) usually sound better (more 'open' or 'transparent' is what I've read) when the crossover is bumped a little higher. In general, trying to stretch a driver to the limits of it's numbers (FR, power or excursion) usually has a negative impact on the sound from that driver. They probably get into a less linear range.

The phase response of the driver also climbs fairly rapidly below 200Hz. Designing a crossover to avoid that climb might create a better sounding system. The impedance valley at 190Hz might cause some minor problems with crossover design, but I'm sure you could get some good suggestions for dealing with it from your driver vendor (Remo?).

The LDSG (see the earlier URL) suggests a crossover of 170-200Hz. I'd go with that. Also, I'd try a low order crossover first. The expense and complexity of a high order crossover may not have the sound you want.

FYI, LspCAD Pro (see 'http://www.ijdata.com/' for more data) has the ability to emulate a crossover. This is a handy feature when designing a complex or tricky speaker system.

I've also read that dual Mangers (per speaker) sound better then singles. I don't remember seeing anything about triples.

Good luck.
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Old 13th September 2001, 06:10 PM   #5
tsz is offline tsz  Sweden
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You're probably right about that it would sound better with a higher crossover point.

I've seen that the phase climbs below 200Hz but what effect does that have on the sound?

Regarding the crossover I was thinking about an active one, but I'm not sure, maybe a low order passive to start with.

I haven't seen anything about dual driver but I saw a DIY project with tripple, one on the front and one on each side. The drivers on the side had a lowpass filter.
See: http://users.skynet.be/accupulse/
Unfortunately I don't think I can afford more than one pair

By the way any suggestions on midbass drivers?
I've got a pair of TC-Sounds 10" subwoofers and they should probably be crossed-over much lower than 150Hz, or?
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Old 13th September 2001, 09:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsz
I've seen that the phase climbs below 200Hz but what effect does that have on the sound?
Unknown. I just wouldn't want to chance it, especially with $1500 in drivers. I'd want to get the best possible sound out of them.

Quote:

Regarding the crossover I was thinking about an active one, but I'm not sure, maybe a low order passive to start with.
It would be easier and cheaper to adjust an active crossover. If you have the amps, I'd go that route. It also allows you to ignore the problem with the impedance curve.

Marchand ('http://www.marchandelec.com/') makes some nice crossovers (both tube and solid-state), and sells them as kits.

Quote:

By the way any suggestions on midbass drivers?
I've got a pair of TC-Sounds 10" subwoofers and they should probably be crossed-over much lower than 150Hz, or?
NO!!! I'd only go up to about 80Hz with the TC-sounds subs. Go any higher (i.e. 150Hz), and the -12db (2 octaves up, passive) will be breaking up. This would be heard. If you have a sharp crossover (24+dB/Oct), you might be able to get away with it, but I wouldn't chance it.

As for suggestions, there are so many vendors in this market that it's unbelievable. I'd go with an 8". Smaller, and you'll have trouble keeping up with the volume level of the Manger. Larger, and it will look unbalanced, compared to the 10" sub, and may not sound as good at the high end.

BTW, how low can you really go with only a 10" driver. My 12" Titanic's do fairly good, but they lack a little on the last octave (15Hz-30Hz). My Stryke HE15s should correct that issue, when I get around to building them.
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Old 14th September 2001, 10:21 AM   #7
tsz is offline tsz  Sweden
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Thanks again Thoth!

The TC-Sounds subs go fairly deep, They can make things rattle at 20 Hz. But I think the amplifier is what limits the SPL.
They actually go deeper than my old 12" Peerless subs with almost twice as large boxes.

/Tobbe
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Old 14th September 2001, 09:14 PM   #8
haldor is offline haldor  United States
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> BTW, how low can you really go with only a 10" driver.

Hi Thoth,

Actually you get get pretty low with a 10", quite a number of bass guitar cabinets use four 10" drivers and they can sound great. Deep, powerfull, clean bass.

Phil
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Old 14th September 2001, 09:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by haldor
Actually you get get pretty low with a 10", quite a number of bass guitar cabinets use four 10" drivers and they can sound great. Deep, powerfull, clean bass.
Deep bass for a bass guitar is about 35 Hz. I'm talking about the next octave down.

As for the 'musical instrument' speakers, most of them are limited to about 3mm XMAX. This puts very tight limits on their ability to create thunderous low bass. They might make good woofers, but I'd never consider one for sub duty.
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Old 17th September 2001, 02:44 AM   #10
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Low E on a bass is roughly 42 Hz. In the case of a six-string, or a five-string tuned with a low B (the usual tuning, although some go for a C on top), the B is, if memory serves, about 31 Hz. I can look it up if anyone is interested in the exact frequencies.
I own a 70's vintage SVT, which was the amp that started the whole 10s for bass thing. As wonderful as that amp sounds--and there's nothing like the sound of an SVT in full cry--it's not a good amp for 5 or 6 string basses. It's more of a mid-range growl. I've owned various other 10s over the years, most recently a Hartke 210XL. Deep bass? Pathetic. I liked the sound of it...as a pair of tweeters for my Hartke 115XL or my SWR Big Ben (1x18" Bag End driver). But Thoth is, unfortunately, right. Even the 15" or 18" cabinets are pretty sad compared to even a mid-fi sub. Go round up the T-S numbers for, say, some of the big Emminence or EV drivers, then plug them into a cabinet program. You're lucky to get to 50 or 60 Hz (!) with anything like flat response. Most bass speaker cabinets have the 'Usable,' i.e. +-10 dB, spec listings in order to show anything like 30 or 40 Hz. Loud? Yes. Clean? No...very high distortion (basses sound *very* different played through a stereo). Deep? No.
Unfortunately.
Yes, I believe Bag End has some cabs that get deeper, flatter, but they accomplish it with EQ. It's not in the cabinets, it's in the electronics. The same trick is easy to do on stereo gear.
If I want to treat myself, I play through my stereo. Softly. Very softly. It's quite easy to bottom drivers with an uncompressed bass. And, no, I haven't gotten around to doing so since I built my current subs (12x12" Titanic drivers). I'd have to unearth my 1/4" to RCA adapter, and I don't remember where I put the silly thing. Yes, I could whip one up in minutes, but it's the principle of the thing. Why make another when there's a perfectly servicable one...somewhere...

Grey

[Edited by GRollins on 09-16-2001 at 10:42 PM]
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