Vifa now to be Peerless v-line

[knifeinthesink]

Which greedy group of thugs are behind this conspiracy?

Its impressive the lengths Tymphany are going to to get the input of the diy community. At first I was PO'd but when I saw the Madisound thread I was quite won over. In fact, I think it is a very responsible move on their part to overhaul the line. Im sure its obvious to everyone that the landscape of audio components is being radically altered by cheap high quality products made in china popping up everywhere. Those companies that do not respond to this and make themselves competitive wont be selling any drivers let alone the old classics. It might not make everyone happy but I think its good business.

 

[knifeinthesink]

Slightly off-topic... but does anyone have ideas for a 2" to 4" mid driver (with lots of detail) inserted between the P13 and the XT25?

I like the P13/ XT25 combo but knowing the XT25 does not like it below 3kHz (and in my case because I willbe running it high SPL) so about 5-6kHz, that's too high for the P13. So I am left with the option of inserting a bandpass HFdriver/ mid covering 1.5kHz to 5kHz range that will have the dual purpose of relieving the XT25 as well as giving me the details (I think) I am missing.

Please feel free to let me know if I offended anyone by posting this question on this thread, apologies in advance.

why not switch to a seas 27tdfc tweeter or the dayton rs28. They both go very low and are happy to do it.

 

[K-amps]

I kinda like the XT25's sound and extension. To me its more like a super tweeter in my application. Plus By experimenting with other tweeters means buying more of them...

Lastly it is not the XT25's details that are worrying me but the P13's... but I do not want to miss out of the P13's smoothness by changing that driver...

I know I am creating my own problem...

so what high-mid should I insert there?

Currently I have borrowed an old Pioneer DSS9 mid. It is a TAD made 4" beryllium cone driver with usable extension to about 12kHz, though it is rolled off at 5kHz-6kHz. Pic attached of the Prototype.

Woofers are the Stryke SA-071's in a 3.75cuFt box, rest are in open baffle.

I will move my questions to this thread:

 

[Zaph]

I like the P13/ XT25 combo but knowing the XT25 does not like it below 3kHz (and in my case because I willbe running it high SPL) so about 5-6kHz, that's too high for the P13. So I am left with the option of inserting a bandpass HFdriver/ mid covering 1.5kHz to 5kHz range that will have the dual purpose of relieving the XT25 as well as giving me the details (I think) I am missing.

The XT25 can cross over at 2kHz LR4 without issue. I've heard a *lot* of people say that it can't, and I beleived them until I ran full tests myself. Obviously, these days I don't believe most of what people say unless scientific evidence is presented along with it. ps. no religion jokes please.

Here's a harmonic distortion sweep full range and then with the 2kHz LR4 filter in place. (I wouldn't go lower than that though) Distortion skyrockets from about 1.8kHz and below, but crossed over above that it's a *very* clean tweeter.

XT25 full range harmonic distortion

XT25 2kHz LR4 filtered harmonic distortion

When filtered, the harmonic distortion certainly decreases to an acceptable level below the crossover point. The above plot is taken at a relatively high level. I boosted it another 6dB and ran the plot again and it was still acceptable. 2kHz LR4 should be fine, even for those who like it loud. Note the filtered plot above is without a LCR impedence compensation trap, and a little lump in the 2nd order HD at 500hz is visible as a result. This does need the impedance peak flattened out. Perhaps those who say it can't cross over low were not using a notch. Heres the effects in the response curve with and without the notch.

XT25 2kHz LR4 filter

XT25 2kHz LR4 filter w/ LCR trap

I don't want the off-topic police to come get me, so this will be my last post about the XT25. You'll see more about it when I post a project using this tweeter. I've got much more extensive measurements including several output levels and multi-tone IMD tests.

Back on subject, the P13 has only one thing going for it: smooth. It is not a low distortion driver, and I think it's time to move on from that to better things.

 

[K-amps]

Thanks Zaph!

I moved my stuff :

Here

 

[K-amps]

, and I think it's time to move on from that to better things.

Which are?

PLease post reply


Here ;-)

 

[richwalters]

QUOTE::I think it is a very responsible move on their part to overhaul the line.

Having struggled for several months in getting some Peerless bass units (850146) I've been informed that (yet again) eventually this bass unit line will eventually be superceded by a Scanspeak unit. I fail to understand why everything has to change when a particular line is sucessful. So is this the nail in the coffin for Peerless ?

richj

 

[K-amps]

Here's a thought.

Assuming R&D costs have been recouped, a scan-speak might cost more or less the same to build as a Peerless yet have a contribution margin of 3x vs. the Peerless....

What's not to understand? Now we may not like it.... but we understand.... rrrriiight!

 

[richwalters]

The Peerless 850146 is a brilliant sounding bass unit at a clean reasonable price. It's annoying when product managers don't understand what they are doing tampering good products off the market.
Probably more money made actually investing in the stock exch rather than real business.

richj

 

[K-amps]

Chances are .. the decision was made higher up.. (you know people who make decisions based on summarized numbers) and I reckon the product managers themselves will be fuming...

No product manager would want to close a line that he runs, but maybe a VP of a division under pressure to butter up the bottom line might do something we would consider nonsensical.

And I never buy into the reasons manufacturers give for such restructuring.. (on this scale)... but on an individual product level, a decision is more credible.... these mass changes are more financially driven then based on product strategy.

 

[pinkmouse]

Exactly, just look at what happened to Audax.

 

[filgor]

Obviously, these days I don't believe most of what people say unless scientific evidence is presented along with it.

Sorry if I'm pulling you off topic again but I agree very stronly with you on this one Zaph. Your website is very impessive and your opinions are transparently supported by measurements.

The above plot is taken at a relatively high level. I boosted it another 6dB and ran the plot again and it was still acceptable.

With absolute respect I have to ask.. What exact input levels are you using when testing distortion.

Since distortion levels sky rocket when you reach the end of a drivers linear displacement. It really is important to know at what level this occurs. This is particularly relavent to cross over frequencies because lower frequencies cause larger excursions.

 

[rabbitz]

Re: Australian Distributers

Hey Rabbitz,

One of the reasons I'm using mostly Vifa is coz I buy through WES and dont like the clipped and bevelled frames on Peerless. do you know of any good distributers in NSW for other decent quality resonably priced drivers. Seas maybe.

I only sell Vifa, Peerless and Scan-Speak but for SEAS, contact John Woodhead at Acoustic Concepts..... just over the border in Victoria. I'm not sure if he sells trade as well as retail. AFAIK, WES is the only major distributor of drivers in NSW.

http://www.acousticconcepts.com.au/

You might want to try some of those Peerless drivers and if you don't like the HDS series, have a look at the 850122 for a 6.5" driver.

 

[filgor]

Re: Re: Australian Distributers

I only sell Vifa, Peerless and Scan-Speak but for SEAS, contact John Woodhead at Acoustic Concepts..... just over the border in Victoria. I'm not sure if he sells trade as well as retail. AFAIK, WES is the only major distributor of drivers in NSW.

http://www.acousticconcepts.com.au/

You might want to try some of those Peerless drivers and if you don't like the HDS series, have a look at the 850122 for a 6.5" driver.

Thanks Rabbitz,
I prefer a circular, die-cast frame that is flush-fit when routed in(fussy huh!). Seas have this but they dont seem to look as nice as Vifa. I think Ill stick to Vifa while they are in stock. By the time they disappear Tymphany will no doubt replace them with a nice range.

What is with the rounded frames on Scan? surely if a person can afford scan drivers they can afford a router.. so why bulge the frame when you can get a flush fit! same goes for bevels on peerless frames!




P.S.

Hey Zaph..

Sorry mate.. I checked your website and saw that you were testing distortion at 90dB

My mistake! any chance of seeing what happened at 96dB?

 

[ucla88]

Hi filgor,

You can also look at my tests of the xt25. The spl equivalents are around 94dB@1m.

http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/index.htm


I agree with Zaph. Overall, the xt25 is a remarkably clean driver and can be used 2-3k. In fact, jonmarsh at HTGuide.com has used it lower and it worked well.

It has more 2nd order HD, but this is a very isolated phenomena and overall the distortion spectra is quite clean. Higher order stuff is very low. And, a remarkably linear driver as well.

It has much more directivity than the typical 1" which is it's main feature. Or, is that a drawback...

 

[rabbitz]

Re: Re: Re: Australian Distributers

I prefer a circular, die-cast frame that is flush-fit when routed in(fussy huh!). Seas have this but they dont seem to look as nice as Vifa. I think Ill stick to Vifa while they are in stock. By the time they disappear Tymphany will no doubt replace them with a nice range.

What is with the rounded frames on Scan? surely if a person can afford scan drivers they can afford a router.. so why bulge the frame when you can get a flush fit! same goes for bevels on peerless frames!

You can flush fit the Peerless HDS drivers but it is a PITA by the time you make up jigs etc. I tried some rebated and some not and it ended up that rebated was a waste of time sound wise so don't do rebate on certain mid-woofers now which means I can now overlap the tweeter face plate without cutting.

AFAIK, the only Scan-Speak with the radius are the Revelator and maybe made that way so manufacturers don't have the additional costs of rebating.

How much effect rebating of mid-woofers is always open for discussion and I don't think it's as important as on tweeters.

 

[filgor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Australian Distributers

You can flush fit the Peerless HDS drivers but it is a PITA by the time you make up jigs etc. I tried some rebated and some not and it ended up that rebated was a waste of time sound wise so don't do rebate on certain mid-woofers now which means I can now overlap the tweeter face plate without cutting.

AFAIK, the only Scan-Speak with the radius are the Revelator and maybe made that way so manufacturers don't have the additional costs of rebating.

How much effect rebating of mid-woofers is always open for discussion and I don't think it's as important as on tweeters.

Yeh, I agree with all that you say.

On an acoustic level it doesnt realy matter.

AFAIC rebating is more about looks than anything acoustic, perhaps even with tweeters. Lets face it a 4 mm dip after the wavefront has travelled 50mm isn't going to make waves. Pardon the pun.

I don’t mind putting in the effort of making up router jigs because it really makes the cabinet look that much neater. It just defeats the purpose if the frame is bevelled or radiused.

P.S. Isn’t Revalator Scan’s most expensive line?

IMO a high end loudspeaker whether it be comercial or DIY that has drivers mounted without a rebate is kind of like a mercedes Bens put together with weld lines or rivets showing on the panel work.

 

[rabbitz]

Yeah... once there is a bevel or a radius on the edge of the driver, then rebating becomes a problem for asthetics as it's not going to be flush. Revelator is their expensive line.

Hahahaha.... nice comment on the Merc. There's one around here with more than rivets showing. It's a shame when fine machinery like that is abused and neglected.

 

[rabbitz]

Tymphany site now has a group of Vifa drivers in the archive that are discontinued.

http://www.tymphany.com/resource_library_archives.php?br=vf&st='dr'

 

[K-amps]

P13 gone??? Can I resume cussing and swearing at them?