Dipoles ?

[gavinson]

yyyyyyyeeeeeeeoooooowwwwwwiiiiiiieee. What happened to this thread?

(monopole low bass at the bottom of dipole full range = goodness)

Ribbon Project

[chops]

Originally posted by AJinFLA
Chops,

my reaction is more about your 14179 thread in addition to what you said in this thread.



Chops, thread 14179 post#200

Hmm, must have got it to work eventually huh? You didn't make up those numbers by chance no? Of course not .
Now you do know that measuring a dipole in room with a non-gated system can be rather tricky. But of course you do.



Chops, thread 14179 post#172

If you are not some kind of comedian then you might see where I would think you have a severe lack of knowledge here right? It almost sounded like you were implying that SL might be an idiot for using the Peerless rather than your wonderful Pyles. But of couse youre not. Are you?


The efficiency of the driver has zero to do with max spl. Fundamental absence of how loudspeakers work? Not sure why I said that.

Do you understand the difference between "extend down to" 20hz and "high, undistorted SPL" between 40 to 20hz? A six inch driver can "extend down to" 20hz. So what? If you can figure out the difference, then you just might grasp why several people, uncluding SL have "suggested" to you that a monopole sub below 40hz is beneficial.

Chops, thread 14179, post#381


Almost sounds like it might have sank in there. Before you post in this thread of course.


Yes, I know.

Good night.

Cheers,

AJ

And your point is.....

Remember, when I started that thread, I was learning and had never heard or dealt with dipole subwoofers before.

Go through that old thread of mine and find the picture of the EQ I was using and see how very little EQing those subs needed. And where I did EQ the subs a little, it was up towards the crossover point, NOT down at 45Hz and 20Hz to help "boost" the output. Are you going to argue with me on that?

Also, I went by SLs driver specs for a dipole sub, as far as needing a high Qts and making a larger baffle for better low end response. Are you going to argue with me on this too?

The Peerless has a low Qts, and is always used in a small baffle, which is the exact opposite of what is required, thus needing a lot of EQ on the LOW end to compensate. Are you doing to deny this?

You can throw all the technical jargon and equations and reasons why those subs shouldn't have worked CLEANLY and LOUDLY all the way down to 20Hz all you want. You can dig up all the stupid things I might have said in my old thread. I DON'T CARE!

The fact of the matter is that my dipoles DID in fact do what I say they did. Why? I don't know, I don't care, but they did.

If you're so freakin' concerned about it, then why not go out and buy four of those Pyle drivers, build the baffles to the specs that I built mine, and test the darn things for yourself?! Then maybe you'll shut up and lay off my back about all of this. Heck, I'll sell you my Pyle drivers real cheap just so you can try them out.

Some things can't be explained and I guess this is one of them. So sue me!

Now like I said, leave me alone!

[LennyK]

Do you have any ideas where I could buy H1252 L22RNX/P in "normal" price ?

best regards

Lenny

[Jezz-the-Fezz]

... is it safe to come in yet?...

[Peter Clements]

I admit that I do not know much about speakers but have been building OB's now for quite a few years. I have made a lot of mistakes but the one thing that I have learned is that the bass drivers do not move much at all. I use 2 x 18"bass drivers on small baffles a side. I don't need to EQ at all. I use as high a QTS driver as I can find. My 18" QTS is about .9 and with a 2.2 ohm series resistor no EQ is necessary. Xmax is 4mm but I cannot bottom the woofers whatever I play and as loud as I can. Why the woofers move less than in a vented box I do not know. My new effort will use 4 x 15" with a QTS of 1.26. Low Q drivers are a waste of time IMHO on a OB as huge EQ is required and they then do not sound that great compared to cheap high Q pro drivers. Just my 2 cents.

[AJinFLA]

Well,

presented with this overwhelming and incontrovertible scientific evidence by folks such as Chops and Peter, I'm now starting to have my doubts about SL's wisdom (much less my ears) in these matters. Never mind his ramblings about distortion, group delay, WAF, etc.
It would now appear that the Orions (or John K's NaO's for that matter) could make a quantum leap forward, were SL to ditch those waste of time, stupid, low Qts Peerless junk subwoofers. It's hard to imagine what he could have been thinking in the first place.
They quite obviously don't sound anywhere near as good as cheap, high Q, low xmax Pro drivers, which, even displacing less air, have greater output for the same sized baffle. Remember, the really important thing is, little, or better yet no eq. Tools of the devil those things.
I'm now thinking of ditching my Peerless subs and building something the size of a medium size refrigerator, like Chops does with such great success. Or was that use to do? I wonder what happened?
Anyway, Peter, you're going to fit four 15's in a shoebox I imagine? Live singly in a small apartment do we? Do you have a suggestion for any particular driver?
Or should I just look for any low xmax pro driver with weak motor strength? Should I get the one with the highest amount of non-linear distortion? Do they publish any data other than the price with these cheap drivers? Is group delay something that happens when the train is late? Does any of this matter as long as an anonymous internet person "says" X or Y "sounds good"?
Graphs and equations have a way of really making my head hurt. I think I like yours and Chops way much better. Greatly simplifies matters when I can just look at a pic of a graphic eq and say "yup, it must be true".
I probably won't get anything selling the Peerless, but my DCX, since no eq is best, should fetch me a few dollars from some sucker.
Please forgive me for being so weak minded as to have believed a so-called (but well known) engineer like SL, rather than the real experts, such as anonymous users of internet forums such as this. How much more delusional could I get than that?

Cheers,

AJ

[Nuuk]

AJ, nobody is is claiming that SL et al are wrong!

We are talking two different things here. The Orion's are undoubtedly top-class speakers but at a top-class price. What people here are trying to do is build something open-baffle that sounds good for the money spent on them.

I too would love a pair of Orions in my room but my budget dictates that I have to use a different approach, ie cheaper drivers.

I would never question SL on the subject of OB's but I don't know him and his philosophy. For all I know he is a perfectionist who wants his speakers to measure as well as possible and sound great too. But those of us not seeking perfection will be happy to compromise on the drivers providing it still sounds OK (even if the theory side of it doesn't hold up).

The bottom line is if you have 1000 USD to spend you can't have a pair if Orions but you can have an alternative design using cheaper drivers. Now, they may not sound as good as the Orions but they sure will sound better than nothing!

[AJinFLA]

AJ, nobody is is claiming that SL et al are wrong!

Um, Nuuk,

Low Q drivers are a waste of time IMHO on a OB as huge EQ is required

and they then do not sound that great compared to cheap high Q pro drivers

The last one sounded more like a "statement" rather than "opinion", no?

See, I'll tell you the reasons why I think my choice of drivers worked out perfectly for me, as they would for anyone else.
1) Siegfried tells us that for the least amount of EQ compensation, we should look for a driver with a total Q of at least .60 or there abouts. So what does everybody end up buying, including Siegfried? A: Those stupid Pearless drivers with exactly the opposite specs for dipole usage and with a lot lower Q than needed, hence the very much needed extra EQ'ing.

Opinion? Are we reading the same posts?

But those of us not seeking perfection will be happy to compromise on the drivers providing it still sounds OK (even if the theory side of it doesn't hold up).

I'm fine with that and spending less money. Just don't make a lot of ridiculous claims - as fact - when you do.
Say they sound fabulous, without resorting to calling the "perfectionist" method as somehow inferior. Thats just plain dumb.

Cheers,

AJ

[el`Ol]

I believe there are actually two points:
*uncompressed sound because of lack of enclosure
*dipole sound
Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to listen to an infinite baffle setting with drivers in a wall between two rooms, but I find that my OBs had not only more bass, but also better imaging, when I added side walls.

[Nuuk]

Well I know what was said but I don't think they were really running down SL but speaking from their own experience. I'll agee that it was a little opinionated but that's what forums are for.

You have picked out bits to back your case but what about the 'IMHO' bit and 'why I think'?

Anyway, I bet we all want the Orion performance, (or something close to it) for less money so let's listen to all suggestions and take it from there.

I have nearly got something (new) to show in this thread and a few questions too!